During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Abstain on Nagito.
Here is my Sloan EP from Deep Space 9:
Who is Luther Sloan? What has he done?
Luther Sloan is an agent of Section 31, Star Fleet's super secret and super scary black ops division. Sloan is tasked with destroying threats to the Federation and this in the middle of the Dominion War where the Federation is facing against a ruthless empire bent on conquering them and Sloan wants to end the war. The Dominion is run by the ruthless Changelings.
Sloan kidnaps Dr. Julian Bashir and puts him in a Holodeck simulation to see if he would be a good operative, with Bashir only figuring it out because Sloan was unaware that Miles O'Brien had an arm injury and did not add it into the simulation.
Sloan appears later when Bashir is going to visit the Romulan Empire for a medical conference, the Romulans are the Federation's ally in the war with the Dominion. Sloan wants to gather information on the Empire and wants Bashir to help, which he refuses. Bashir's superior, Admiral Ross, wants Bashir to maintain radio silence. Sloan suggests that he wants to kill Chairman Koval, the head of the Romulan intel group, the Tal Shiar. Ross suggests Sloan has an ally in the Romulan government that will kill Koval. Ross becomes sick and since Bashir cannot contact Deep space 9, he turns to Senator Cretak, a Romulan senator who has worked with the Deep Space 9 crew. Bashir convinces Cretak to go into Koval's office and get a list of suspects of who the Section 31 mole is.
Koval has Bashir and Cretak arrested and accuses Cretak of giving state secrets to the Federation. Koval has Sloan arrested as well, claiming that there is no Section 31, and Sloan wanted to kill him because the Tal Shair killed his mentor. Koval kills Sloan and Cretak is sent to trial.
Except, Sloan is not dead, he was beamed away at the last second, Koval is a Section 31 mole, Ross conspired with Sloan to manipulate Bashir into brining down Cretak, so Koval can move through the ranks of government and be their man within the highest levels of Romulan government.
Sloan appears one last time, Section 31 has secretly infected Odo, a Changeling who is an ally of Star Fleet, with a deadly virus, hoping he would infect his people and kill off all the Changelings, ending the war. Bashir pretends to have a cure and tells Star Fleet medical to lure him out. Bashir captures Sloan and wants to force him to reveal the cure. Sloan tries to kill himself with a device that will destroy his brain, Bashir stabilizes him, but Bashir and O'Brien have to link with Sloan's brain to find the cure.
Sloan tries every trick to distract them so that they die with him, making them think they woke from the link, while still being trapped in it and Sloan temps Bashir with Section 31 secrets that he could use to defeat the organization. O'Brien finds the cure and convinces Bashir to leave, Sloan dies and Odo is cured.
Is he magnificent?
Is he not as cool as Garak, few Star Trek characters are, but he is pretty competent, believes in what he is doing, tricks Bashir a couple of times, and can friendly one moment and angry the next.
Is he is a Bastard? Too much of one?
He is guilty of aiding a genocide, which is pretty bad.
The crew is appalled by this news, but in his mind, he is stopping the war. The Changelings started a war of aggression against the Federation and commit a ton of war crimes (killing millions during the war, attempting to destroy the Bajoran Solar System, infect a planet with a bioweapon, using genetically engineered slave races as their proxies during the war and killed 800 million Cardassians by the end of the war when Cardassia rebelled against them), so the Changelings are not just innocent bystanders.
Final Verdict?
He may count, if you think he is not too vile.
Edited by Overlord on Jun 27th 2020 at 5:10:46 AM
Eh. I mean, Sloan is a really bad dude, but he has some level of genuine good intent, his Fantastic Racism is limited, and he has absolutely impeccable class, bravery, and intelligence. What he does is horrible, but it's not driven by hatred or bigotry. I'll give Sloan a
. Doesn't hurt that in many ways, Section 31 is A Lighter Shade of Black compared to the Dominion.
Coincidentally, if he's upvoted, he's the closest The Illusive Man will get to this territory, seeing as TIM is an expy of Sloan.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Jun 27th 2020 at 4:58:43 AM
To be honest I didn't remember him as that magnificent, but on reflection yeah he's pretty impressive. Plus I don't get any bigotry off him, he honestly believes wiping out the founders will cripple the Dominion and save the Alpha Quadrate.
to Luther Sloan.
Edited by MGD107 on Jun 27th 2020 at 5:14:37 AM
Night seems to be slowing down, so I'll just post this to show what I've got so far for tomorrow:
Azula: Don't flatter yourself. You were never even a player.
- Anti Magic Academy The35th Test Platoon: Sougetsu Ootori is the hammy, silly Chairman of the Inquisition, using his seemingly harmless personality and position on the side of good to hide the fact that he is a god seeking the destruction of the planet. Fooling enemies and allies alike with his fake persona, Sougetsu simultaneously serves as the Principal of the Anti-Magic Academy, building it from scratch and training hundreds of youngsters with potential in a variety of skills. Sougetsu manipulates his students to carry out a bevy of plans for him unbeknownst to them, and plays members of Valhalla and the Alchemists alike to his tune, ultimately planning to force Takeru to strike him dead and doom the planet to annihilation thanks to Sougetsu's connection to the life force of the world. Driven by an engineered desire to destroy all things—himself included—Sougetsu nonetheless respects his foes and has a roaring good time carrying out his plans, chuckling even when beaten that he regrets nothing and is pleased with how he lived his life.
- In/Spectre: The protagonist Kotoko Iwanaga is revered as a Goddess of Wisdom by the Yōkai and keeper of order. Taking drastic measures to maintain order Kotoko uses her intelligence and people reading skills to weave lies to satisfy her clients' wishes, using force and even framing a dead woman to stop a rampaging phantom. She also shows no mercy to those who try to interfere with order, punishing those who tamper with it through her truths and lies, unconcerned of the consequences for those around. Intelligent and ruthless, Kotoko's sharp wit and charisma shows why many worship her as a deity of knowledge.
- Soul Eater: The man known as "Mifune" and "God of the Sword" is a samurai and guardian of the young witch Angela Leon. Through sheer tactical acumen, Mifune takes down dozens of armed thugs and soldiers of the Death Weapon Meister Academy (DWMA) with his "Infinite One-Sword Style" technique. With Black*Star as his chosen Worthy Opponent, Mifune, through multiple clashes, teaches him to become a true warrior and through his own manipulations and deals, manages to ultimately secure protection for Angela within the DWMA, even at the expense of his own life.
- He-Man and the Masters of the Multiverse, by Dan Fraga and Tim Steeley: The version of Skeletor from issue 3 is the smartest and most brilliant among all Skeletors of the comic. Finally managing to take over Castle Greyskull and conquer Eternia by empowering his magic staff to the point that he was able to overpower Sorceress. Banishing all the Masters of the Universe, aside from Teela, to another reality, Skeletor created Dark Shield around the Castle, allowing him to effortlessly hold the entire armies of Snake Men and the Evil Horde at bay. After capturing two versions of He-Man from other universes, Skeletor simply puts them in cage with Teela, correctly deducing that they will reveal everything to her. When Anti-He-Man, led Snake Men, and the Evil Horde break through his Dark Shield, Skeletor simply unleashed his army and He-Men at them. Later on, Skeletor turns the tables on Anti-He-Man by banishing all Snake Men and Evil Horde with ease and freeing Masters of the Universe to drive him back. Despite this marking the end of his rule, Skeletor manages to leave with his dignity intact.
- Ghostbusters (IDW Comics): Tiamat is a Sumerian goddess and sister of Gozer. After the Ghostbusters defeat Gozer, Tiamat comes to Earth to toy with the Ghostbusters, kidnapping Dana Barret and Louis Tully ostensibly to lure the Ghostbusters to her but really aiming to lure Gozer out in the open. She succeeds and Gozer possesses Ray and fights his sister. After losing the battle Gozer attempts to regain some of his power stored in the Ghostbusters' containment unit, but is unable to do so, with the containment unit having safeguards to prevent a possessed Ghostbuster from opening it. Tiamat removed that knowledge from Ray's head, just to torment Gozer before she destroys him. Tiamat returns in the Crossing Over mini-series, after two Ghostbusters, Ron Alexander, and Dr. Jillian Holtzmann, invent a dimensional portal that allows Ghostbusters from across the multiverse to interact. Tiamat takes the form of Dana Barret and when Peter Venkman is a coma, she encourages him to convince the other Ghostbusters to bust ghosts across the multiverse, knowing that will cause chaos across the multiverse.
- Mr. Right: Francis Munch, The titular "Mr. Right", was a hitman who killed people for money before growing bored killing on the behalf of others, now killing those who attempt to hire him and killing any hitmen trying to assassinate him. Taking a liking to Martha Mckay, Francis uses his charming and humorous personality to win her over, while avoiding assassination attempts during his dates with her. When Martha gets kidnapped by Von and Richard Cartigan, Francis goes to their hideout to rescue Martha, persuading the Cartigan's men not to fight him and killing those who refuse to listen while turning the Cartigan brothers against each other by revealing to Richard that Von tried to have him killed and defeating his former partner, Hopper, in combat. Successfully rescuing Martha, the two are last seen in Vietnam two months later ambushing a sniper trying to kill them.
- Watchmen (2019): Lady Trieu is the daughter of Adrian "Ozymandias" Veidt and just as brilliant and devious as her father. Seeking godhood, Trieu builds an empire on her own, using the racist Seventh Kavalry for her own purposes, manipulating them with her devices and plan so they can capture Dr. Manhattan for her. Trieu proceeds to wipe out all the leaders of the Kavalry while bringing her father to witness her victory, even Ozymandias helpless against her until Dr. Manhattan intervenes.
- Out of the Abyss: Vizeran DeVir is a powerful drow archmage exiled for his worship of Lolth. Desiring revenge, Vizeran manipulates the player characters by devising a plan to draw the rampaging demon lords to a single spot to have them fight until one is left and too weak to stop the heroes in a fight. What Vizeran does not tell them is he intends to have the demon lords converge on the city of Menzoberranzan, killing thousands of Drow in the process in what Vizeran sees as both vengeance and necessary step in destroying the dominion of Lolth over his people, all the while strengthening himself with whatever arcane knowledge he can manipulate others into providing him.
- Hotak de-Droka is a general of the Minotaur empire who grows dissatisfied with the corruption inherent under the rule of Chot Es-Kalin. With his wife Nephera, Hotak launches a brilliantly planned purge of all of Chot's allies and family known as the Night of Blood, killing Chot himself and establishing control over the Minotaur Empire while using his charisma and political skill to establish complete control. Planning to invade the continent of Ansalon and strengthen his empire, Hotak proves to be one of the most effective and dangerous minotaurs on Krynn.
- Kingdom Hearts franchise:
- Xemnas, the Nobody of Xehanort, founded Organization XIII to find worthy vessels for his own Heart. In doing so, he lied to its members into believing that they had lost their Hearts forever, in the hopes of keeping them empty and under his control. To fill them with his essence, Xemnas sought to create Kingdom Hearts by stealing the Hearts Sora released with his Keyblade. When Sora created a Nobody called Roxas, Xemnas recruited him and cloned him to create Xion so he could exploit Sora’s power as much as possible. Even when Roxas and Xion defected, Xemnas simply went back to relying on a revived Sora to collect Hearts for him. Ultimately foiled only because of Ansem the Wise’s intervention, Xemnas later returns thanks to Time Travel, becoming a key member of the Real Organization XIII. Staving off usurpers at every turn with a ruthless lack of emotion, Xemnas is finally defeated for good, lamenting that his first emotion in years was loneliness. In his final words, he expresses admiration for Sora for having the strength to bear the "pain" of having a Heart. A brilliant mind with a stoic yet affable demeanour, Xemnas proves himself a deadly and devious adversary.
- Axel, the Nobody of Lea and number VIII of Organization XIII, is a quick-witted and smooth-spoken "fixer" for the Organization responsible for silencing those who try to betray Xemnas. Axel acts as a mole for Larxene and Marluxia's scheme, killing loose ends like Vexen and Zexion with an impenetrable smile on his face, while manipulating Sora's group, Namine, and the Riku Replica, eventually dismantling Marluxia's scheme in preparation for his and Saïx's own attempt to seize power from Xemnas. Axel shows humanity and depth unique for a Nobody far earlier than most of his comrades, bonding fiercely with Xion and Roxas, and once his love for them overrides his loyalty to the Organization, Axel goes turncoat. When his attempt to take Roxas from Sora back fails, Axel decides to help him instead, sacrificing his own life to save Sora and paving the way for Lea to ally with the heroes against Xehanort's overlapping scheme. Always ready with a quip and a smile for any occasion, Axel leaves little room for wonder as to how the fandom memorized his name so universally.
- Kingdom Hearts coded: Data-Roxas serves as the last obstacle for Data-Sora in a recreation of Castle Oblivion. Proposing that Data-Sora delve into the castle and experience memories that will fade as soon as they come, Data-Roxas tricks him into filling himself with the "hurt" of lost memories that will drag him deeper into the darkness if he keeps shouldering the burden. When Data-Sora optimistically rebukes him, Data-Roxas initiates one last emotional battle that ends with the revelation it was all a test. Struggling with being the data copy of a Nobody, Data-Roxas channeled his pain towards his role as a surprisingly manipulative character before peacefully exiting stage left.
- The Last Story: Dagran, hero Zael's childhood friend and boss, after losing his family to the corrupt nobility, masterminded the Garuk and Lazulis war. Desiring his group's future and revenge, Dagran planned to get the Outsider's power to gain Count Arganam's support, but when Zael got it instead Dagran tried appealing him to the count, even pushing him to wed his niece Calista. While doing this, Dagran staged a Gurak invasion as cover to kill General Asthar, leader of the knights who killed his family, but when Zael was blamed for it, he framed Jirall, Calista's fiancé, to secure their marriage but when Zael denounce Arganam, Dagran realizing his plan has crumbled, decide to get the full power of the Outsider to reshape the world, manipulating the wielders Zangurak and Zael before taking the power for himself. Confronted by Zael's group, he reveals his entire plan to them before reluctantly battling them in a final fight, and after being cut down Dagran, in his last moments, reconciles with his team and resurrects Lowell with the last of his power. A crafty mercenary, Dagran's wit showed how he was able to be the one ruling everything.
- Shadow Hearts:
- A former mage of the Vatican, Albert Simon desired to better the world, but the prejudice he suffered as a heretic for trying to reform the Church to serve the people turned him to dark magic. Still remaining peaceful, when his apprentice Rasputin got corrupted, Albert finally decided to destroy the world by summoning God and rebuilding it. Needing a light and dark source of magic for the ritual, Albert masterfully manipulated everyone to achieving his goal, while remaining a true gentleman. Leading to a final confrontation with Yuri and co. with an agreement that they'll leave the fate of the world to the victor, and despite losing, Albert took it gracefully, believing in Yuri to face the dark future, even assisting him by using the last of his power to send Yuri's team to fight God and help him master Amon as a Spirit Advisor. A truly worthy adversary, Albert Simon was a sorcerer to fear yet respect with his cunning and graceful manners.
- Masaji Kato started off as a comic relief character, but after suffering tragedy grew into one of the most formidable in the series. Formerly Kawashima's bumbling assistant, after her death Kato changed, becoming a high commander for the Japanese army and Yuri's good friend. In charge of forming an alliance with Nikolai and Russia, Kato had other plans: making a deal with Nikolai to steal the Emigre Manuscript for him before capturing him for his powers, Kato used this to see his desire to resurrect Kawashima as the Mutant Ape Ouka come to fruition. However, when he lost Ouka from Nikolai's rampage, Kato snapped, setting up the Japanese government's downfall for letting this happen betraying them to Yuri. After their defeat, Kato planned to return the world 100 years in the past so he could rebuild it, but set-up Yuri to stop him in hopes he could fix the world in his stead, even arranging things to let him see Alice one last time to motivate him. When Yuri defeats him, Kato gracefully urges Yuri and his group to build the world they wish for before thanking Yuri for being his friend one last time. Savvy and sharp, Kato's growth has made him a character the many look up to as a magnificent antagonist.
- Doctor Doom is the tyrannical ruler of Latveria and the Arch-Enemy of the Fantastic Four. Upon learning that the Skrulls were infiltrating humanity, Doom went to work to find a way to detect and expose the alien threat to his rule. To get the data he needed, Doom sent an army of Doombots to kidnap the Wasp and the Invisible Woman, whom he suspected of being Skrull agents. His Doombots attacked both the Baxter Building and Avengers Mansion to distract both teams while his targets were brought back to Latveria. When the two teams launched an assault on his castle, Doom effortlessly held his own in the fight and defeated all the heroes without breaking a sweat. After getting the data he needed from the Skrull who replaced Invisible Woman, Doom developed a computer chip that would reveal the Skrulls' true forms. He then delivered the chip to Tony Stark so he could stop the invasion; all while claiming such a task was beneath him. Proving instrumental in stopping the Skrull invasion, Doctor Doom's skills and intellect were more than a match for the Earth's Mightiest Heroes.
- Homestuck: The Draconian Dignitary is an agent of Derse and Jack Noir's main underling. Once Jack seizes control of Derse from the Black Queen, the Dignitary takes steps to ensure his rule is kept, including arranging the attempted theft of the White Queen's Ring. The Dignitary is led by Vriska to Rose's journal, which he uses the genetic code kept in it to create Becquerel, the First Guardian of Earth. This eventually leads to Jack gaining the powers of a First Guardian and rising to partial omnipotence. From then on, the Dignitary takes on the role of administrating Derse in Jack's stead, ordering the assassination of Jade Harley when his superior can't do it himself.
- Dungeons & Dragons:
- Critical Role:
- Anna Ripley served as a scientist for the Briarwoods, creating an acidic compound to distil Whitestone ore into residuum. When Percy de Rolo attempted to kill her, she took interest in his gun, a weapon never seen until Percy made it, and recreated one of her own. After being imprisoned for attempting to leave the Briarwoods, Ripley manages to convince Vox Machina to free her in exchange for her assisting them, successfully escaping the party the first chance she gets. Vox Machina later finds out that Ripley was using the gun they confiscated from her to spy on them, hiring a crew and obtaining two of the Vestiges of Divergence from under Vox Machina’s nose. She also manipulates Kynan into working for her by taking advantage of his resentment for Vox Machina when they rejected him. When Vox Machina chases after Ripley, she lures them into an explosive trap, badly injuring the majority of the party, before ambushing the party, resulting in her successfully killing Percy. Brilliant and manipulative, Ripley proved to be one of Vox Machina’s most dangerous enemies.
- Arkhan the Cruel is a Paladin and Highlord of Tiamat the Scaled Tyrant. Embracing the doctrines of Tiamat, Arkhan finds himself allying with Vox Machina where he forms a cheerful alliance to bring down the wicked god Vecna before he can dominate all Exandria. Showing himself a skilled and tactical fighter, Arkhan reveals his intentions are less than benevolent after Vecna's defeat when he pretends to try to destroy Vecna's remaining hand. Instead, Arkhan severs his own and attaches Vecna's to the wrist, escaping under the noses of a dumbfounded Vox Machina before intending to use the hand to unleash Tiamat to bring order to the universe, even if she must destroy it first.
- Critical Role:
- His Night Begins (link
): Virat Nariman is a skilled, crafty hitman who seeks vengeance on The Syndicate for the rape and murder of his daughter. Throughout his quest, Virat deceives those attempting to lure him into deadly traps, and gets the upper hand on those sent to stop him, while torturing and murdering anybody who gets in his way, later getting his drug addicted son back into top shape. Later going up against Ahman Gotwani, the head of the Syndicate, Virat crafts a plan that takes advantage of Gotwani’s lack of honor, whereupon he easily annihilates his army, karmically kills him, and destroys his entire country-wide operation. As he later lays dying after murdering his rival, Virat manages to instill hope and affection in his son with his last breath, which encourages him to find love and start his own organization to hunt down Human Traffickers.
- Star Trek: The Original Series: "Balance of Terror": The Romulan Commander is Captain James T. Kirk's equal and opposite within the Romulan fleet. An honorable soldier, he was tasked by the Praetor to attack Federation outposts on the Neutral Zone and is in command of an experimental ship armed with a cloaking device and a powerful plasma weapon. Despite being disgusted by the Praetor's reckless schemes, the Commander enacts this mission and when the Enterprise chases after the Romulan ship, Kirk and the Commander engage in a deadly game of cat and mouse, with the Commander countering several of Kirk's attempts to catch him. The Commander also manages to trick Kirk into firing on a nuclear weapon, damaging the Enterprise. When the Enterprise defeats the Romulan ship, the Commander shows respect and kinship to Kirk, but chooses death over surrender by destroying the ship.
- The Next Generation:
- Q is a clever transcendent being who masquerades as a rambunctious psychopath and tries to join the Enterprise Crew after being kicked out of the Q Continuum, demonstrating his powers by teleporting the Enterprise across the galaxy. Forcing the Enterprise to confront the terrifying Borg and for Jean-Luc Picard to beg for Q's help, Q saves them out of respect for Picard's humility. After the Q Continuum strips him of his powers, Q asked to be teleported to the Enterprise, knowing that Picard's nobility will force Picard to protect him against his various enemies. After regaining his powers Q uses his gifts on Picard to let him change his past so a series of events will allow him to avoid an untimely death, though at the cost of not being as highly-promoted within the Federation, in order to teach him the importance of learning from mistakes and taking risks. In his final appearance in the series, Q is tasked by the Continuum to destroy humanity, but Q does so in a way that Picard can prevent, where Picard creates a Time Paradox when Q shifts him through time and Q provides hints to Picard to resolve the paradox and save humanity.
- Ensign Ro Laren, is a Bajoran and disgraced former Star Fleet officer approached by Star Fleet Admiral Kennelly, who says he will help arm Bajoran rebels against the Cardassians if she helps stop Bajoran terrorist attacks against the Federation. Ro uncovers a conspiracy by Kennelly to deliver the Bajoran rebels to the Cardassians and uses a Bajoran ship that is piloted by remote to fool the Cardassians into thinking they killed rebels and reveals the Cardassians were behind the terrorist attacks against the Federation. Later, when the Enterprise is damaged by a natural disaster, Ro is able to get a bridge control panel working by dumping power from the phaser array into the Bridge and suggests they separate the saucer section from the drive section and fly away when it looks like the Warp Core is about to explode. Later Picard has Ro join the rebel group, the Maquis, to undermine them, with Ro pretending to be on the run from Star Fleet officers and gains the Maquis' trust by stealing medical supplies from the Enterprise. Eventually, Ro decides to really join the Maquis and reveals a Federation Fleet hiding in a nebula to ambush the Maquis, deciding to become a rebel over being a Star Fleet officer.
- "Elementary Dear Data": The hologram of Professor Moriarty, created to be an opponent capable of defeating Data at Holodeck games accesses the computer to learn of his past and the ship, Enterprise, then kidnaps Dr. Pulski, revealing he is self aware, and taking control of the ship's computer. Sealed away until the crew finds a way to free him after making an agreement with Picard, Moriarty returns years later in "Ship in a Bottle" when he's accidentally released. Angry at the crew's failure to free him, Moriarty demands to be released along with his beloved, Countess Regina Barthalomew. Taking control of the ship when Picard refuses, Moriarty threatens to crash it unless he and his loved one are set free. Although Picard wrestles back control of the ship, Moriarty traps Data and Barclay in an illusion on the Holodeck, before accessing Picard's access codes to the real ship, willing to die alongside everyone on board unless his dreams are granted. Although eventually trapped in virtual reality with the countess, Picard had to compromise by allowing Moriarty to live in the bliss of exactly what he wanted to save his crew from the brilliant criminal.
- Star Trek: Deep Space Nine:
- Elim Garak presents himself as merely a plain, simple tailor, but is quickly revealed to be much more then that. A former member of the Cardassian Intelligence outfit, the Obsidian Order, Garak is exiled from Cardassia and forced to live on Deep Space 9. Garak is able to defeat several of his enemies, outwitting arrogant Cardassian military officials like Gul Dukat and Gul Toran. Garak also is able to manipulate the heroes as well, spotting an assassin on the station sent to kill him, Garak blows up his own shop to get Odo investigate the situation and deal with the assassin and gets Worf to defy his orders by playing to his sense of honor. After Cardassia joins the Dominion, Garak is resolved to freeing Cardassia from the Dominion. Garak's masterstroke is forcing the Romulan Empire to declare war on the Dominion by manipulating Sisko into manufacturing evidence of an upcoming attack on Romulus and presenting it to a Romulan Senator. When the Senator decides the evidence is fake, Garak blows up his shuttle, so that the Romulan Empire will think the Dominion killed him and declare war on the Dominion. In the final season, Garak works with Colonel Kira and Legate Damar and uses his skills to help a Cardassian resistance movement overthrow Dominion rule on Cardassia.
- Luther Sloan is an agent of Section 31, Star Fleet's secret black ops division, tasked with defending the Federation from threats. In his first appearance, he kidnaps Dr. Julian Bashir and puts him in a holodeck simulation to see if he will make a good operative. In his second appearance, he contacts Bashir and asks him to spy on the Romulans during a medical conference on Romulus, manipulating Bashir into helping have Senator Cretak arrested and have her duties taken over by Chairman Koval, who is a double agent working for Section 31. Later, Bashir finds out that section 31 infected Odo with a virus during a medical examination, hoping he would spread it to the rest of the Changelings. Bashir lures Sloan to him by claiming to have a cure. When Bashir captures him, Sloan tries to kill himself and Bashir has to put him on life support. Bashir links with Sloan's mind to get the cure and Sloan uses every distraction he can to make sure Bashir dies with him.
- Star Trek Into Darkness: Khan Noonien Singh is a superhuman with incredibly high-intelligence. Though believed to be genocidal and seeking to dispose of any race not on the same superiority level as his own kind, the tie-in comic Star Trek: Khan reveals Khan to have been a beloved and benevolent leader over his people despite being a conqueror. Preserved along with his crew for hundreds of years in cryo-sleep, Khan is awoken by the warmongering Admiral Alexander Marcus and as Commander John Harrison is forced to design the fighter starship the USS Vengeance and torpedos to go with it. Khan rebels by inciting a bombing of the secret Defense division and then mowing down several Starfleet officers, including Admiral Christopher Pike, in an ambush where he specifically targets Marcus. Khan learns his crew still lives in their pods in the torpedos he hid them in and surrenders himself to Captain James T. Kirk and the USS Enterprise. Khan then provides the info of the Vengeance and helps Kirk take it over, brutally kills Marcus and then attempts to escape and fights off Lieutenant Spock after nearly crashing the damaged ship into Starfleet Headquarters.
- Star Wars Rebels:
- The Grand Inquisitor, from seasons 1 and 2, was once a Jedi Knight who turned to the Dark Side, becoming the leader of the Inquisitorius, a group dedicated to hunting Jedi who survived Order 66. The Inquisitor used the bones of a deceased Jedi to lure numerous Jedi for him to kill and nearly kills Kanan Jarrus and Ezra Bridger using this tactic. Pursuing the two afterwards, The Inquisitor gathers information on them before entrapping them again and planting a tracking device on their ship to follow them across the galaxy. With the help of Wilhuff Tarkin, the Inquisitor is able to capture Kanan and decides to use him to bait his allies after their attempts to break him fail. Eventually losing to Kanan in a duel, The Inquisitor decides to take his own life rather than suffer a worse punishment for his failures, facing death with complete dignity and returning as a spirit to help Kanan fend off the rest of the Inquisitors.
- Mitth'raw'nuruodo, aka Grand Admiral Thrawn, appears in seasons 3 and 4, where he manages to be just as brilliant in Canon as he was in Legends. Thrawn is a genius strategist, who manages to always stay a step ahead of the competition and takes any escapes of them as minor setbacks having planned for victory in the long run. Thrawn is able to figure out that Kallus is The Mole for the rebels and ends up using him to feed the Rebels false information. In "Zero Hour", his plans come together with the destruction of Chopper Base and the elimination of Phoenix Squadron, and only some incompetence by his allies and ultimately the intervention of an Eldritch Abomination prevent his total victory. In "Rebel Assault", he sets up a blockade to stop the Rebel Forces from invading, and despite his best efforts, they manage to get through, with heavy losses; only to run straight into the second blockade he had at the ready, hiding in the planet's atmosphere on the off chance they managed to get through the first one. The rebel fighter squadron is annihilated with the only survivors being Hera, Chopper, and Mart Mattin.
- Batman: Mask of the Phantasm: The titular "Phantasm," Andrea Beaumont, is driven by both a passionate hatred for crime, and a desire for revenge for the death of her father. Arriving in Gotham in her Phantasm guise, Andrea begins picking off the mob bosses responsible for her father's death, scheduling a plane ride to bring her in later on publicly to divert suspicion from herself as the Phantasm. Using her old relationship with Bruce to deduce his identity as Batman, keep him from the truth and put him on a wild goose chase, Andrea targets The Joker as her next victim, sparing the madman only on Batman's request. Becoming a professional mercenary in The Batman Adventures, Andrea saves Batman several times from assassins and ingrains herself in criminal organizations just to take down the masterminds from within. In her final appearance in the DCAU, Andrea talks Amanda Waller herself out of carrying out a ruthless assassination, imploring her to respect the memory of Batman and be a more honorable person.
- DC Universe
- Marvel Comics
Edited by 43110 on Jun 28th 2020 at 2:34:44 PM
to Sloan
I wonder who else could count on Star Trek. I know that Lightysnake has Khan on his to-do list, does he plan to do that anytime soon?
Edited by G-Editor on Jun 27th 2020 at 4:46:06 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Sloan
Abstain on Nagito
- "Master of Illusions": Quentin Beck is a failed actor who decides to become a superhero. To do this, he disguises himself as Spider-Man and goes on a robbery spree. After announcing his intent to capture Spidey in the guise of Mysterio, Beck waits for the Wall-Crawler to confront him before using special effects to defeat him with illusory monsters. However, Mysterio gets bugged and his mechanations are ecposed, so he decides to commit crimes openly. When he robs a bank, he sets up illusions one-by-one, overwhelming the opposition while he escapes with the loot.
Is there a particular reason those ones need a re-evaluation Klavice? I want you giving Danganronpa a rest because that's been nothing but trouble but I don't see the reason to pick apart random old effort posts you did when we looked at them as a group, you received support from other people who had played/seen the works and there was no cause for concern.
@G, @43 Speaking of which, movie is almost over (he was knocked out by Spock). Close enough though. Casting doubts on this I admit and wondering if it will even be worth the trouble (more so than Mr. Roarke was since he was kind of nothing discussion was over so fast). At least we will have had a very in-depth conversation either way though whether both versions go up or not.
Alright. Here we go:
What is the work?
Star Trek Into Darkness is the 2013 sequel to the 2009 hit version of Star Trek which introduced all the famous characters (in an inverse alternate timeline co-existing with the Prime one) who all form the crew of the USS Enterprise, particularly Captain James T. Kirk and his half-human/half-Vulcan second-in-command Lt. Spock. In this film, they deal with a new different enemy threatening the crew with a power unlike any they have seen who is a blast from the past (for Trekkies and the Prime crew though since it is a past that is not relevant here obviously).
Who is he and what has he done?
Khan Noonien Singh is a superhuman who is recruited into Starfleet by Admiral Alexander Marcus under the name John Harrison to help create the dreaded fighter starship the Dreadnought and special missiles along with it. Khan is first introduced offering help to an officer in London: a cure that will save the life of his dying young daughter and harnesses his own blood to do so. Khan’s price to do this though once the girl is healed is that her father bring a ring bomb into the Data Archive site (actually the secret defense division of Starfleet for creating weapons and collecting intel that Khan worked in) and detonate it so the place blows up.
This gives Khan the chance to get all the officers and their captains gathered together in the proper setting for an emergency meeting and proceeds with a planned attack, resulting in several, including Admiral Christopher Pike ending up dead though he was only really after Marcus (more on that in a bit). As the ship Khan is in ends up destroyed by Kirk, he uses a portable transport device he built to go straight to the Klingon planet of Kronos knowing full well that it is definitely out of Federation Space. Khan then kills a bunch of Klingons with just two weapons and saves Kirk, Spock and Lt. Nyota Uhura when they go there to find him, surrenders and feels absolutely no pain when Kirk attempts a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown on him.
Khan reveals his real name eventually and that the pods containing all 72 members of his crew (in a type of cryo-sleep for about 300 years which he put himself and them in after their banishment for being war criminals) are stored in the missiles he designed. He attempted to smuggle them away in them in the pods because Marcus when he woke Khan up used them as leverage to get Khan to help him design the ship and the missiles so he could arrange for a war with the Klingons to be triggered (Marcus wanted to militarize Starfleet). Khan then escaped when caught and thinking his entire crew was dead, did the things he did before specifically to try to get to Marcus (the fact that when he believed his crew dead and abandoned his original mission only to target Marcus for revenge could help his case a little) and avenge them all (Khan also sheds some genuine tears about how much his crew means to him).
As Marcus comes after the Enterprise with the intention of destroying it along with Khan especially to prevent any of what he did getting out (having also damaged the ship’s Warp Core to keep it from getting far), Kirk convinces Khan to help him sneak on board the Dreadnought to disable it and soaring through spaces in suits, Khan guides Kirk himself when Kirk’s own suit malfunctions leaving him blind (after they temporarily lose contact when Khan is hit by debris but then recovers). They get on thanks to Montgomery "Scotty" Scott being there to let them on and are able to take out the majority of the skeleton crew to get to Marcus. Scotty then stuns Khan on Kirk’s orders while Spock learns from Spock Prime that Khan is the most dangerous individual they ever faced in the Prime timeline.
Khan wakes up and attacks Kirk, Scotty and Marcus’s daughter Carol (taking another moment to break Carol’s leg too by stepping on it and yeah, that could also work against him) and then proceeds to kill Marcus by crushing his head with his bare hands. Khan demands the return of his crew or he will kill them, during which Spock confronts him about their mission to snuff out any species inferior to them. Khan pushes and Spock lets him retrieve the missiles while Khan sends Kirk, Scotty and Carol over with the intention of blasting the Enterprise away instantly.
Spock sets off the missiles (none of the crew members are in any of them) and wrecks the ship, also causing Khan to lose it over thinking his people were completely obliterated. After Kirk sacrifices himself to reactivate the Enterprise’s Warp Core and keep them from plummeting to Earth, Khan uses what is left of the ship he is in to attempt to hit Starfleet HQ and it crashes into part of San Francisco. Khan then exits the ship and attempts to escape while Spock pursues him and the rest of the Enterprise crew discovers Khan’s blood could be used to resurrect Kirk (which he is).
After a chase through the streets on foot, Spock and Khan end up fighting on a cargo transport (then another as Khan attempts to escape again) with Spock attempting the Vulcan Neck Pinch on Khan only for Khan to barely feel it and Spock to be no match for him. Uhura beams down and stuns Khan a bunch of times and that results in Spock eventually overpowering and knocking Khan out. Khan is last seen having been put back in cryo-sleep and stored away with the rest of his crew (setting the stage for his eventual return).
Is he magnificent?
You bet he is. He proves to be just as smart as he is strong with his means of creating both the cure with his blood and the portable beaming device to put himself on Kronos where he is able to hide from both Starfleet and the Klingons successfully (with the former being unable to pursue him there outright because of the latter), help devise the plan to board and guide Kirk to the Dreadnought to get onboard (and then through it) and by the means of attempting to direct and send the falling ship into the city where he nearly escapes if not for Spock pursuing and fighting him and Uhura stunning him. This is also after he is believed to have lost his whole crew too (to him, the only people he cares about in the world) and the clearly enraged reaction he has is completely understandable).
Bastard? Too much?
Now for the elephant in the room: His mission is to incite genocide on all specifies he and his crew deem “less than superior” and that even then, it was not sanctioned by those who Khan and his crew took orders from (hence their banishment probably). Not sure how I can argue against it except that it is a throwaway line for one thing. Also, Khan does not really go on any rant as to how much better he believes his people are than everyone else (has some moments early on where he talks about how he is better in every way though and that could be seen more so as a declaration of his skills), unless you count boasting how his people can survive lack of oxygen and all Khan would have to do is deplete the Enterprise of its oxygen to get onboard and retrieve his crew.
I do not think that could counts as him declaring superiority and just rather him stating an advantage that would make challenging him futile. Also, even then, he still gives Spock the chance to give him the crew back rather than go that direction. While he does still intend to kill everyone once getting the crew back, that is also him sticking to his principles in a way.
Khan, while not benevolent, is not disgusting about looking down upon all inferior species and he is also not singling out any particular species as him and his crew being especially better than. If anything, that may actually be a fairly non-biased way of looking at it by means of just considering all species to be inferior (no arrogance or smugness and very little pettiness if at all). With the special case of Marcus (who was a personal one at that certainly), Khan is also not torturous in his methods of execution either and the majority of his victims die quickly.
Verdict?
Very tough call. I suppose
and yeah, without that line among some other smaller things it would certainly be a way more confident one. I would say: “We approved Screenslaver, so why not him?” That is a different case though and the comparison may not be apt.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 27th 2020 at 9:55:41 AM
Hold up, genocide? I'm not sure we should be approving someone who commits genocide. I mean if they're a well intentioned extremist like Sephiran/Lehran from Fire Emblem Tellius, I'll say yes, but... this doesn't seem well intentioned at least from my understanding.
To expand, the reason Sephiran works is becaused he's of the oppressed race, this is basically an allegory for the nazis/SS as stated by 43110.
Edited by Klavice on Jun 27th 2020 at 10:01:00 AM
I've seen the movie and briefly touched on or not, it is clear cut "inferiority"-based genocide his goals are rooted in. No, there's no getting around it, even if he cares for his men they're like the intergalactic SS. I'd argue that it doesn't get much attention anyways given doing so is why they were deemed a threat in the first place and it's literally the goal Khan wants to return to once he's done fighting the Enterprise crew. This is where I apply disgusting as weight against everyone fairly and Complete Monster or not, this is an elephant in the room I can't ignore.

EP on Kelvin Khan is almost ready. It might need a few more edits. I sent the current version to MGD and papyru.
Having second thoughts I admit. Though I think I make a good case, I do not want to waste everyone’s time if they think it would not be worth it.
Yeah, DK Joker and MCU Mysterio are not this and not because they are CM s, because the former is too horrid and the latter too emotional.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 27th 2020 at 4:16:48 AM