During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Like the Doom one too.
Also the Luthor quote will be migrating to the ensuing DC page, so we'll need something there.
Edited by 43110 on Jun 23rd 2020 at 11:36:00 AM
The Doom quote is good.
How tricky is it upload some clips, I found an old Garak clip that could be good.
RIP Akira Toriyama
Hm, we need a quote for the comics page? I've got a suggestion. Not sure how good it is.
Honestly, if that one's not good enough, I'm sure I can find another from V for Vendetta. That one's something of a quote mine for this.
- "There is no flesh and blood within this cloak to kill. There's only an idea. Ideas are bulletproof."—V, V for Vendetta
Edited by Riley1sCool on Jun 23rd 2020 at 9:27:30 AM
I'm at least digging the audacity to such a statement.
RIP Akira Toriyama
There's a couple others he could provide.
- "I didn't put you in a prison, Evey. I just showed you the bars."—V, V for Vendetta"But let us raise a toast to our bombers, all our bastards, most unlovely and unforgivable, let's drink their health, then meet with them no more.—V, V for Vendetta
I'm liking the third the most.
Actually, from V for Vendetta, the song Vicious Caberet (composed and sung by V) has a solid one:
There's a murderer at the Matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and actors too are uncertain if the show is through
And with side-long looks await their cue but the frozen mask just smiles.
At last! The 1998 Show!
The torch-song no one ever sings
The curfew chorus line
The comedy divine
The bulging eyes of puppets strangled by their strings
RIP Akira Toriyama
Oh, I dig the hell out of that.
Yeah man.
Do we have a way to do a poll, cause all of those quotes are good. I also support a DC and Marvel page.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Yeah, the entire song is V mocking the dictatorship and happily talking about how he's manipulating everyone around him.
I think we're good for Lighty's unless someone has a preference of one of the others over it.
Those "Vicious Cabaret" lines are *chef's kiss* magnifique.
By the way, I think as with Complete Monsters in Marvel/DC crossovers, I think the Batman & Captain America version of The Joker should go on both the Marvel and DC pages.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jun 23rd 2020 at 11:13:53 AM
Tbh I'm kinda inclined to move that one to "other" since it was a collab, just like how Transformers is staying even though it's technically Marvel. Also I made this.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Personally, I think we should follow the precedent established for CM characters, but I won't be too upset if we decide otherwise.
While we're on the subject of quotes, what do you think of this one:
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jun 23rd 2020 at 11:25:38 AM
I like the quote but I have many gripes with the way CM formatting is done, not the least of which is the re-listing on multiple pages going beyond just cross-wicking to the work page, I'd rather just leave it on other.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I like Lighty's V quote. The Magneto one is good to.
Edited by Bullman on Jun 23rd 2020 at 2:04:10 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
I guess I can understand that.
Anyone else wanna weigh in on Marvel/DC crossovers?
Also can I have whichever Marvel and Comics quotes we're going to use in drafts so I remember?
Goku Black
Were all good with doom right.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yuppers.
The wifi here sucks
Yes to the Magneto quote and I say use the doom quote and V song.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Magneto and V's song
Alright so I’ve been reading this fan fic for a while and now that it’s been two weeks since the last chapter was published I can finally EP this candidate. Brace yourselves because the fic in question is called Phone Destroyer: Into the Digital World
What’s The Work?
Phone Destroyer: Into the Digital World is a fan fiction written by our very own Clown-Face, that is based well on the video game South Park: Phone Destroyer. The premise of the story is that a new version of Phone Destroyer is released in that allows players to enter their phone transporting them into a digital landscape where they race against them and battle one another to win a prize that would grant them any wish. Unfortunately, it turns out that game is a more sinister purpose created by this girl Leslie Meyers.
Who Is She? What Has She Done?
Leslie Meyers is a Child Prodigy known for creating highly advance technology since kindergarten. She also revealed to have created Leslie the ad that was causing trouble throughout season 19 before PC Principal destroyed her. However the real Leslie became interested in the town her ad was in, where she would arrive there and spy on the kids as they played their games, one of which was Phone Destroyer.
Leslie Meyers would pitch the kids’ game to a video game company where she would have them create a virtual reality video game based off of Phone Destroyer that can be accessed using special headphone that will connect to their smartphones and allow them enter her virtual world while getting everyone in South Park to enter her virtual world and play her game by marketing that anyone who wins will receive a prize that will grant them any wish that they desired.
However the true purpose of the person who wins her game is to have them under her mind control and would use them as an epicenter to brainwash everyone whose in her world into becoming her mind controlled slaves. Not only did Leslie make sure that almost everyone in South Park enters her world and plays her game, but she also makes sure that Kenny gets her headphones that would allow him access to her world, while making sure that he wins the game knowing that Kenny’s needs and wants the wish the most to improve his life from poverty.
When Kenny and the rest of the kids and adults enter the virtual world, Leslie would keep her identity a secret using a helmet to keep her appearance hidden while she helps Kenny throughout his journey to win. To make sure nobody else gets to the prize before Kenny she would orchestrate a war that forces everyone to fight while allowing Kenny to discreetly bypass it to win the prize.
To orchestrate the grand conflict, Leslie would hire Kyle Broflovski to kill his Arch-Enemy, Eric Cartman and bring his body to her, while giving him a reward after he succeeds in doing so. Leslie would then resurrect Cartman from the dead using a special card called Dark Resurrection and give Cartman special powers that would force other players to join his army to battle against Kyle and his friends and other players that Cartman was unable to subjugate to his army.
After a long grueling battle between Cartman and Kyle’s armies Kyle wins the conflict where he then finds out that Leslie had orchestrated the whole thing to keep everyone distracted while Kenny reaches the prize. However Kyle was too late to stop Leslie’s plan Kenny then becomes brainwashed into becoming her mind controlled slave along with everyone else in the game, except for Kyle who was wearing a special bracelet that prevents her mind controlling spell from affecting him, which he had took earlier from her right-hand lackey Nathan.
Leslie then offers Kyle to join her side where all her thralls would become subservient to Kyle, noting that Kyle could make Cartman his slave. Kyle refuse Leslie’s offer to join her, to which Leslie responds by ordering everyone to kill Kyle while Leslie leaves the virtual world. Leslie would also make sure that once she enters the real that she would keep Kenny in close proximity of her, while ordering her thralls to keep Karen away from her brainwashed brother knowing she’s the only person who could reach through to him and free him from Leslie control
However, Kyle uses a special card that would free his best friend Stan and little brother Ike from Leslie’s mind control where the three would leave the virtual world as well. Once they do so, they discover that everyone who had played the game is also brainwashed in the real world as well, though there were also a few kids who did not get brainwashed due to having enough willpower to keep Leslie’s mind controlling spell to effect them.
Kyle and the others would soon learn that Leslie plans to unleash the game throughout the world, using the false pretense that they’ll get a wish if they win while having the President of the United States, whose under Leslie’s mind control for playing her video game, distribute her headphones to give them access, which would bring all of humanity under her control and allow her to Take Over the World.
To stop Leslie’s diabolical plan, Kyle and his friends break Karen from her imprisonment when they then battle against Leslie, a brainwashed Kenny, and all her forces. After a long grueling battle, Leslie with her brainwashed thrall manages to beat Kyle and his friend where she then attempts to kill Karen. However, Kenny upon seeing Leslie trying to kill his little sister breaks free from Leslie’s brainwashing where he then proceeds to swiftly defeat Leslie while freeing everyone else from her mind control spell in the process.
Leslie would then vow vengeance on Kyle, Kenny, and their friends for foiling her plan, only for her mother to show up take Leslie away with her, planning to punish her upon learning about her plans for trying to enslave all of humanity to her will and rule the world in the process.
Is She Intelligent? Is She Charismatic?
As a Child Prodigy Leslie Meyers proves herself to be extremely intelligent and manipulative, orchestrating every single event in the story, exploiting everyones desires and wants to pin them against each other, while having them unknowing do her bidding, and its through her genius manipulations she is able get achieve her goals and was only stopped by Kenny suddenly break free from her brainwashing when witnessing Leslie trying to kill his sister.
This Leslie also has a lot more personality compared to her ad counterpart, where the story has Leslie is always seen smirking and smile whenever things go according to her plan and is shows much more emotions here, which definitely adds to her charm. Even so, Leslie also makes sure that her emotions don’t cloud her judgment and when faced with obstacles such as Kyle not being under Leslie’s control, she offers Kyle a chance to rule by her side, and when Kyle refuses and tries to stop her, Leslie simply has her forces try to kill Kyle and any others who broke free from her brainwashing.
In fact, she only looses her cool two times in the whole story, with the first one being where Kenny breaks free from her control and defeats her and when her mother confronts Leslie about her actions. That said Leslie was just caught off guard by Kenny’s suddenly beating to which she had no time to react and quickly regained her composure afterwards. The second one can be understandable since Leslie is still a 10 year old girl and her reaction upon being confronted by her mother is appropriate for her age. That said here are the two links to those moments, Boss Fight and Game On, to see what everyone thinks about them
What’s The Competition Like?
Leslie clears the competition by far having orchestrated the story’s events and flawlessly manipulates everyone like a fiddle and no one coming close to her level of intellect and charisma. She even effortless play Manipulative Bastard Eric Cartman and Smart Guy Kyle Broflovski against each other, while having them unknowingly help her complete her plan
Is She a Bitch? Is She Too Much of a Bitch?
Leslie is definitely a bitch as she tricks everyone into entering her game manipulates Kyle into killing Cartman, only to bring him back to life while giving him immense power knowing he would abuse it and create a massive army to fight against Kyle, orchestrates a war between Cartman and Kyle’s armies, while also manipulating Kenny to activating the key to brainwashes him and everyone else in the game into becoming her thralls, while intending to distribute her game to the entire world to bring all of humanity under her control, while having her brainwashed minions kill Kyle and his friends, and attempts to kill Kenny’s little sister when she tries stop her.
That said Leslie herself never delves into any deplorable nor disgusting villainy that would take away from her charm, has offered Kyle a chance to rule the world together with her and seemed upset that Kyle refused her offer, and has given Kyle and Karen multiple chances to surrender to her stating that she doesn’t want to kill them, and only resorts to lethal force when they make it clear that they will not give up in trying to stop her. I should also not that the fic is rated T so all content still has to be appropriate to the rating, limiting the amount of violence, sexual themes, and other inappropriate content which actually works in Leslie’s favor to make sure that she isn’t too much of a bitch to be disqualified
Final Verdict?
I will leave that decision for you guys.
@ Clown-Face: Point out any errors in the EP since Leslie did came form your story
Edited by G-Editor on Jun 23rd 2020 at 12:24:57 AM
I... can confirm this is a South Park fic. I’m sorry G I’m not comfortable voting on this. If people say yes and it goes up cool but there have been way too many issues with the source work and the want for a fan fiction of said world to have a keeper for me saying I’m sold there’s objectivity in effort posts on this subject.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
to the doom quote
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?