During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Kato
What's the work?
His Night Begins
is a serialized podcast by Nikesh Murali, which has just finished its final season about 2 weeks ago.
I've covered this series on the CM thread a few times, but for those who don't know, hitman Virat Nariman has suffered a lot. His marriage with his wife is faltering, his son has become a drug-addicted douchebag who doesn't want anything to do with him anymore, and his daughter had been murdered and raped by a child-trafficking operation. Virat takes great umbrage at that last part, and now he wants his revenge.
Now, let’s talk about motherfucking Virat Nariman, the Indian Punisher.
Who is he?
Virat Nariman, a hitman working for any contract he can, leads a bloody rampage against a child trafficking operation once they raped and murdered his daughter, and to kill their leader, Sai Kali Bahkth.
What does he do?
Throughout Virat’s quest to find the one responsible for killing his daughter, he outsmarts his opponents, seeing through their lies and attempts at getting him killed because he’s been in the game so long, and because he’s just that smart. Virat even disguises himself on the rare occasion, hiding his identity knowing that Sai Kali Bhakth’s men are looking for him. In Season 2, a squad of Sai’s hitmen sneak into a hotel Virat’s staying at, but Virat makes quick work of them through his skills of stealth and murder. It all cumulates in Virat laying the smack down on Sai and stopping the operation with the help of the young girl Gulab.
But Season 3 is where he truly shines. Having been gunned down by the Syndicate for foiling their child-trafficking operation, Virat survives, and with the help of a farmer, trains himself to be all buff, strong, and skilled again, having spent months sleeping and confined to a wheelchair. Forced to partake in Syndicate leader Pepe’s plan to kill the Syndicate’s accountant in exchange for his son, Virat immediately knows it’s a trap, figuring that he’s going to be killed right after he’s done. Virat, still kills the accountant at the funeral, attacks the duo hired to kill him, and decides to fight the Syndicate once and for all to protect his son. Over the season, Virat gathers resources from his biker friends, all while making his son quit his drug habit and learn to love him as a father, doing whatever he can to ensure his boy’s safety. Despite tracking down and killing Pepe, he’s actually not the leader of the Syndicate. The actual leader, Ahman Gotwani, blows up Virat’s friends and threatens to kill him and his son should they not meet for one final showdown at the Pastern Sanctuary.
Virat crafts a plan where, at the meeting spot, he and the bikers would set up straw dummies inside, knowing that Ahman’s men would destroy the church from afar rather than face him head-on, which Ahman does thanks to his lack of honor. Once Ahman realizes that he’s been duped, Virat’s men attack and kill all of Ahman’s soldiers. Virat tortures Ahman once he's got nobody left to back him up, and kills him by dragging him across the desert pavement with his motorcycle, finishing him off by letting him get eaten by hungry Indian wolves. Virat just outsmarted the head of one of the most powerful crime organizations in India without breaking a sweat.
But sadly it doesn’t end peacefully for Virat. In an attempt to leave his past behind and travel with his son, they both are intercepted by the Nishajel, a figure from Virat’s past who trained under Virat’s uncle. Since they want to prove who’s the better assassin, the two engage in a final battle. While Virat gets his ass kicked, with his stomach getting disemboweled, Virat is able to defeat the Nishajel through the art of distraction. During their fight, Virat had made his son drive their van up a hill, and once the Nishajel's in position, Virat has the van rolled downhill at breakneck speed. Virat kicks the Nishajel into the van, killing the assassin for good. But in the process, Virat’s legs get run over, leaving the once strong hitman crippled from the waist down and dying. As Virat lays dying, he congratulates his son on what he has done, and with his last breath, proclaims his fatherly love for him before dying. Virat’s actions would go on to inspire his son to not become a hitman, but to instead find love and lead an anti-human trafficking operation where he hunts down human traffickers.
Is he charming? Intelligent? Able to think on his feet?
While he's not all that friendly (being a skilled assassin and all), Virat at his core is a father who wants to make things right with his family, viewing them as his only reason for living. He's vastly intelligent, knowing full well when people are deceiving him or leading him into a trap. Even when he does get his ass kicked every once in a while, he's still able to cleverly defeat his opponents.
Is he a bastard?' Too much of one?
Oh yes. Virat is a violent man willing to torture criminals to death for information. But he has friends who genuinely care for him, he loves his family, and the whole reason behind his quest for revenge was because he loved his daughter very much.
The competition?
None really. Nobody else is as crafty as Virat.
Verdict?
I believe he counts.
Edited by therealjackieboy on Jun 20th 2020 at 9:07:15 AM
It's Spooky Month!Kingdom Hearts coded: Data-Roxas serves as the last obstacle for Data-Sora in a recreation of Castle Oblivion. Proposing him to delve into the castle and experience memories that will fade as soon as they come, Data-Roxas tricks Data-Sora into filling himself with the "hurt" of lost memories that will drag him deeper into the darkness if he keeps shouldering the burden. When Data-Sora optimistically rebukes him, Data-Roxas initiates one last emotional battle that ends with the revelation it was all a test. Struggling with being the data copy of a Nobody, Data-Roxas channeled his pain towards his role as a surprisingly manipulative character before peacefully exiting stage left.
Like Satoshi said, spoiler out this whole writeup.
EDIT:
Virat and Kaito
Edited by erazor0707 on Jun 20th 2020 at 12:12:23 PM
Here is someone i want to propose, but unsure about
What's the Work?
He-Man and the Masters of the Multiverse is the most recent comic based on Masters of the Universe franchise. Consisted of 6 issues, the comic tells the story of Keldor from Anti-Eternia (Keldor is the name of Skeletor from most versions of Masters of the Universe franchise), here the good guy, being summoned by two versions of He-Man to help them stop Anti-He-Man from killing the rest of He-Men and Skeletor's of other universes and draining these universes', which he intends to use to release the Dark Gods upon the multiverse and subject realities to their horrific rule. Along the way they visit universes of original Filmation He-Man, universe based on New Adventure of He-Man, universe based on 2002 animated series and the original "Miniternia" universe based on original Mattel minicomics. (For the record, none of the universes that featured in this comic are actually canon to the universes that they are based upon, they are simply based on them aka they take the premise of that media they base the universe around and thats it).
My candidate is the version of Skeletor from issue 3.
Who is Skeletor
?
This version os Skeletor is the only version of Skeletor in the multiverse (and the thid Skeletor overall in the whole franchise), who managed to take over Eternia. Also, this version of Skeletor is the only one, who managed to completely defeat his version of He-Man. At one point in the past deciding to merge his staff with magical artifact, instead of using them separately, Skeletor created the "Ultimate Staff", which he was able to use to defeat Sorceress and banish He-Man and all Masters of the Universe and banished all of them, except Teela and He-Man, to another realm and turned He-Man into immaterial shadow, able to walk freely and observe everything, but unable to actually do anything about it. Conquering Castle Greyskull at last, Skeletor created a Dark Shield around it, making himself invincible to the attacks from Hordak and King Hssss.
Managing
to
capture
two versions of He-Man, who arrived and his good version from another universe, Skeletor brought them to now his Castle Greyskull. Throwing
He-Mens to Teela's prison room, he instructed Trap-Jaw to listen to their talk to know if "they are what they say they are", as he says that this way works better than torture, due to He-Mens having "soft spots" for Teelas (which works). Later on Skeletor sends Evil-Lyn and Beast Man to Spikor for incevization training for their failure to ensure that no one comes near to his dark shield, but in reality it was to get himself and Keldor alone, as he want only him to hear his words. Skeletor then reveals
how he conquered Castle Greyskull to him, but also says that he was afraid to take its full power or knowledge due to seeing something horrible there. Meanwhile King Hssss and Hordak talked
how they are couldn't break the Dark Shield, while Anti-He-Man arrived
and pointed out that he now has the power of hundreds of Castle Greyskulls, which can help them to break through Dark Shield. Resisting
Keldor's attempts at convincing him that the person that he was is still inside him, Skeletor sees that Snake Men and the Horde broke through his shiled, to which he responds
by sending his army at them and captured He-Mens as well.
Saying
that he don't feel like "wasting his power on playing the hero", Skeletor also points out that he "knows that man, who always does", saying that seeing Skeletor succesfully conquering Eternia would certantly make his He-Man mad and he frees him and transports
him and Teela to the middle of the battle, leading to He-Man decimating many soldiers. Then Skeletor decided
to kill Keldor, due to him "knowing too much, due to being him", but Keldor overpowered him and thrown him to the battlefield. There Shadow Weaver manipulated
He-Man to throw his sword at Skeletor to try to kill him, but Skeletor was saved by another version of He-Man. Unfortunatly this allows
Anti-He-Man to take Sword of Power and kill that version of He-Man and he was preparing to drain the Castle Greyskull of its power and kill Skeletor. Skeletor then simply banishes back
all of the Horde and Snake Men and brings back Masters of the Universe, showing that he could have dealt with them easily, but he never used this way because this brought back his enemies. This drives
Anti-He-Man back and forces him to teleport to another dimension, thus Skeletor saves his own life and the life of his He-Man. As Keldor points out that his rule now is over and his castle is in ruins, Skeletor in anger says
that none of this would have happened if he would have taken the full power of Eternia, but he feared the evil behind the cosmos, and that keldor destined to turn into Skeletor eventually, before he left with all his dignity intact.
Is Skeletor Magnificent?
This version of Skeletor is the only one in the franchise, who manage to completely defeat Masters of the Universe and gain full control over Castle Greyskull. Also this Skeletor efforetlessly holds at bay entire forces of Snake Men and the Evil Horde. Snake Men and the Horde was able to break his Dark Shield only with Anti-He-Man's help and even then, Skeletor responded smartly, by not only having his army and his captured He-Men fight them, but also unleashing his He-Man at them, while placing Teela there as well, due to her being his "soft spot", allowing He-Man to decimate many enemy soldiers to protect Teela. When Anti-He-Man was about to kill him, Skeletor simply banished Snake Men and the Horde to free Masters of the Universe, which drove Anti-He-Man away and saved the lives of both Skeletor and his He-Man. Even through this Skeletor is as nearly as much of a Big Ham as the other ones, he never shown to be completely outsmarted or outmatched, unlike all other Skeletors from the comics, who either got easily killed by Anti-He-Man or got tricked and knocked out.
Too much of Bastard?
This IS Skeletor, so it goes without saying, but still this version is never shown to engage in revolting stuff or being too evil. Hell the narrative treats him a bit more sypathetically than nearly all other versions of Skeletor, when he says that he was afraid of the evil he saw deep in Castle Greyskull's core and when he said at the end, that none of that would have happened if he would have taken all the power. Narrative never treated him as a revolting villain, more like a smarter more charismatic one.
Final Verdict
What do you think?
All pages of the comic with the version of Skeletor that i propose is in the EP, so anyone can check out for themselves, if they are not sure if i analize everything correctly.
Put him in ComicBook.Spider Man with Hobgoblin in a tree.
Uh Kraven exclusively fights spider man and his family. It Seems weird to not put him in that tree. Like Sinestro for Green Lantern that's where he should go
Edited by miraculous on Jun 20th 2020 at 11:32:30 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

Kato.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid