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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#21376: Jun 19th 2020 at 6:36:37 PM

Alright, here's the EP that I've been working on for the past few months.

Who is the candidate and What does he do?

He is Kraven...he is a man of many names...the beast...the hunter...Kravinov. In all seriousness this is Sergei Kravinov, better known as Kraven the Hunter. He was born in Russia but his family was forced to flee to America when the Czar was overthrown. His mother did not take this well and slowly went insane, causing his father to abandon her and have a child Dimitri (better known as the Chameleon) with another woman. Kraven did not take this well and eventually found purpose as a big game hunter in Africa, prefering to hunt with his bare hands rather than with ranged weapons. At some point Kraven also took a potion that gave him enhanced abilities and reduced his physical aging. One day, Kraven was contacted by his half-brother, who asked for his help in defeating Spiderman, Kraven loved the idea of hunting the most dangerous man alive and agreed.

Kraven attacked Spiderman, showing off his hunting prowess through his various strategies, such as using a poison that makes Spidey’s hands shake so badly that he can’t web swing, or having Chameleon disguise himself as Kraven to distract him. Spiderman ultimately comes out on top and Kraven is arrested. Kraven would return multiple times to menace Spidey and other heroes, frequently showing his tactical skill and honorable traits (hilariously one comic called him a “somewhat magnificent menace”). However, he eventually grew weary of this life, believing his honor to be gone, and decided to go on one last hunt to prove his superiority over Spiderman. He tranquilized Spidey and buried him alive, and in order to prove himself superior, impersonated him (actually not the first or last time he impersonates him). While impersonating the Web-Head, Kraven attacked Vermin, a villain that Spidey needed help from Captain America to beat previously, and captured him single handedly. When Spiderman escapes his grave, Kraven sics Vermin on him and is satisfied when he fails to capture Vermin, who escapes into the sewers. As Spidey leaves to stop Vermin, Kraven promises to “never hunt again” and then kills himself so he dies with his honor restored. Spidey does, however, capture Vermin afterwards but Kraven doesn’t know that.

Years later Kraven’s wife Sasha, his children Alyosha and Ana, and Chameleon decided to revive Kraven, enacting a hunt against the various spiderpeople and sacrificing Mattie Franklin to revive his dead son Victor as a mindless monster (learning that only Peter’s blood will revive people properly). They seemingly sacrifice Spidey in order to bring him back but it was actually his clone Kaine and Kraven is revived so that “only the Spider can kill [him].” Kraven is understandably pissed that he was revived from his self inflicted death and kills Sasha and Victor, and has Ana hunt and kill Alyosha. Kraven then went on to attack the spiderpeople, hoping that they would kill him, nearly succeeding by stabbing Kaine’s best friend, which caused Kaine to stop his heart temporarily.

Kraven’s last appearance was in 2019 Hunted where it’s revealed that he went to the Savage land in order to find the High Evolutionary, who he forced to create 87 clones of him (causing Ana to leave in disgust) that he can raise as his heirs. However when he sends them on their final test, one of the clones hunts and kills the rest and despite being horrified by their deaths, Kraven is proud of his clone (called ‘The Last Son of Kraven’). Kraven then goes on to set up his most glorious hunt, having Taskmaster and Black Ant kidnap dozens of animal themed villains (most notably brilliantly luring Black Cat into a trap by having Hammerhead promise her valuable paintings in exchange for doing a job), recruits several rich people who like Big Game Hunting, and having Arcade design various devices for him. Among those captured was Billy Conners, son of the Lizard, who Kraven used to lure Spidey into a trap and he is captured.

It is then that Kraven’s plan is revealed, he dumps all of the animal characters in Central Park and has Arcade set up an nigh-unbreakable forcefield around it, and has the Big Game hunters controlling robots through VR in order to hunt them. However Kraven has more up his sleeve, having Arcade give the Vulture a device that weakens the robots so they can be destroyed, which kills the person controlling them as well. Kraven’s hatred for both the people who take the name and appearance of animals, and the people who hunt said animals for sport is so great that he’s effectively turned Central Park into a killing field where he seemingly intends for everyone to die.

Kraven isn’t content with just this however, and when Billy and Black Cat escape and the Lizard is brought into the park, he sees an opportunity. He sends his son out to attack Billy and Black Cat and has Spidey locked up with the Lizard with a video of the attack, and Spidey chooses to save them by ripping out the inhibitor chip that prevents the Lizard from hurting others, which is nearly fatal for the Lizard. Kraven then lets Spiderman go and lets him see the guards that the Lizard killed and places the blame on Spiderman. Kraven then plays on his fears about his enemies returning to haunt him because he didn’t kill them, however Spiderman notices that the guards were actually killed by Kraven to help push him to kill Kraven. Spidey turns the tables on Kraven by making him watch the Lizard fight Kraven’s son, but at the last moment the Lizard chooses not to kill him and runs off to protect his Billy (who he had actually killed in a previous comic), this allows Kraven to see the error of his ways and he releases all of the hunters and hunted. Kraven then dons Spiderman’s costume once again and confronts his son who kills him, since Kraven exploited a loophole that him truly embodying the good of Spiderman led to his death, meaning the spider ultimately was the cause of his death (at least that’s my best explanation, the actual curse isn’t explained very well). The last Son of Kraven then finds a note left behind asking him to take up the mantle of Kraven the Hunter, ensuring that his legacy lives on.

Is he Charming?

Most definitely, while Kraven isn’t a smooth talking charmer or a polite mastermind he still has a level of charm about him that stems from his obsession with honor, complimenting his foes on their skill and calling it an honor to be hunted by him. This isn’t to say that he isn’t more traditionally charming when not on the hunt as he’s quite the casanova and seems to be well liked by the people who know him. He does have a few screws loose but it never impairs his ability to be an excellent villain.

Thinks on his Feet?

This is actually his greatest claim to the position of a Magnificent Bastard in my opinion since quick thinking is his strong suit due to his way of fighting. He’s constantly changing strategies and using new tricks to gain the upper hand. This extends to Hunted as his gambit to get Spidey to kill him was mostly a spur of the moment idea that took advantage of various things happening at the time.

Bastard? Too Much?

He’s most certainly a bastard but he never truly crosses the line, even in Hunted, most everyone he killed was some form of Asshole Victim due to either being criminals or rich murderous assholes. His wife was also an asshole victim and him killing Victor was a Mercy Kill in his mind. He also was kind enough to spare the Chameleon from the massive hunt of animal themed characters.

I should mention some stuff that does concern me about him. Firstly is an issue that I mentioned a while ago from a comic called “Kraven’s First Hunt” (written by the same man as Kraven’s Last Hunt) which is a retelling of his first appearance. In it, he tries to force himself on a woman and gets his face scratched as a result. The people who read my older posts said that it can be chalked up to Depending on the Writer due to the ambiguous canon of the comic. Also him being an attempted rapist is pretty out of line with his casanova personality in other comics.

The second one is a mention of Fantastic Racism on his character sheet which says that he tried to kill his daughter after learning she was an inhuman. I read the comic that this is from and there doesn’t seem to have been any kind of followup to it and her appearance in Hunted (which for the record is one panel) has her seemingly still working with him until she leaves on her own volition.

Other Mitigating Factors?

I read damn near every comic he’s appeared in (going by this reading order) but I haven’t read his appearance in Unbeatable Squirrel Girl since I doubted that it would have any great effect on his character outside of it (which is didn’t as far as I can tell) and since he’s actually a much more noble man there so it wouldn’t have changed much for this EP (and admittedly since I kind of got lazy). There is also a 4-5 month gap between the last comic on that list and Hunted but nothing I’ve looked at mentioned anything important in that time span. If I’ve missed something important I’m sorry but I very much doubt that I have.

Conclusion?

I’d say he’s way more than ‘somewhat magnificent’

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#21377: Jun 19th 2020 at 6:45:01 PM

Finally some movement! Yes to Kraven.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#21378: Jun 19th 2020 at 6:55:58 PM

Yes to Kraven. One of my favorite Spider-Man villains.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#21380: Jun 19th 2020 at 7:40:11 PM

  • Fridge Brilliance: That Dean, a Magnificent Bastard, is the narrator, granting him control of the story and the opportunity to make himself sound sympathetic (e.g. betraying Joe, then talking to the viewer about how he regrets selling his friend out at the end).

Found this on Billionaire Boys Club. Should the MB pothole be cut? Not only does it seem like an unnecessarily placed here but I don't think Dean counts. I am currently doing research on him for a CM effortpost but to my understanding he is a downright petty Jerkass and tried to sexually assault this girl.

Edited by username2527 on Jun 19th 2020 at 7:41:20 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#21381: Jun 19th 2020 at 7:43:51 PM

Yes cut it.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#21383: Jun 19th 2020 at 7:47:51 PM

[tup] to Kraven

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#21386: Jun 19th 2020 at 8:20:48 PM

User btw those get cut regardless since YMMV potholes don't go on trope examples. I've gutted it from the page.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#21390: Jun 19th 2020 at 9:47:46 PM

[tup]Kraven.

On YMMV.Elseworlds Finest Supergirl And Batgirl.

  • Magnificent Bastard: Lex Luthor is smart enough to deceive and manipulate everyone, he plans for most of eventualities and he's capable of talking his way out of most of situations (apparently even being exposed).
    Hamilton: You always did turn adversity to advantage, Lex... What about the tape? If I transmit this, and Joker goes to work for you, it'll be proof you collude with known criminals.
    Luthor: Not at all, Emil. It'll be proof of my ability to persuade a criminal to turn from his ways, and my willingness to get a win-win equation out of any situation.

Luthor murders an infant Kal-El here and justifies it with "he was only an alien". Still a potential keeper?

Why so serious?
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#21391: Jun 19th 2020 at 9:57:00 PM

Honestly would say no, but I hadn't read it.

TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#21392: Jun 20th 2020 at 1:05:54 AM

[tup] Kraven of the Hunt

Got another one, this time I'm going back to Shadow Hearts for this one. While Albert Simon was most certainly a charming gentleman and villain, he wasn't the only one who manage to capture people's heart. In the follow up game Shadow Hearts: Covenant, considered one of the best JRPG of all time, we deal with his traitorous apprentice Rasputin and his group called Sapientes Gladio, and no it's not these guys. While not completely terrible, they clearly don't have the same charm or earn the level fo respect Albert earned, as said by Yuri when he defeats Rasputin, instead were going for a character from the last game as a minor character who Took A Level Of Badass between games and became the final villain of this one. One of Yuri's close friends after sharing a tragedy, it's Masaji Kato.

Who is Masaji Kato and what does he do?

In the previous games, Kato was your bumbling henchman comical relief for the villain turned ally Yoshiko Kawashima who he was smitten for. Lost and confuse due to not knowing anything about the occult, Kato was just there to be the Butt-Monkey to provide some relief. However during the game, Kawashima was killed due to the power her father was gaining which led to rivals using her as a traitor to damage his name, Kato was heart broken and left disthrough. Ever since, Kato heart change, becoming more cynical and more drastic but it also lead him to become stronger, powering up from the relative wimp he was in the first game to a badass commander in the 2nd, and during the time between both games, he and Yuri became good friends due to both losing the love of their life.

At the 2nd game, Kato is now a major force of the Japanese army who was suppose to secure an alliance with Russia to become a superpower with a supposed heir of the leadership Nikolai, who was also a member of Sapientes Gladio. However while he acts like it's for patriotism, and nationalistic ideals, he's actually doing it to get access the Emigre Manuscript, which he had Nikolai's group steal from Roger Bacon as a part of a deal to give him resources to build a new empire, and curry favor with the Japanese government for a project to resurrect a clone of Kawashima and his own force of artificial super soldiers called the Mutant Apes. This contrast with Yuri who was out there to stop Nikolai who was planning to use his position to spread chaos.

When Yuri's group came to fight Nikolai after dealing with Rasputin, Kato interfered, defeating Yuri and kidnapping Nikolai himself. Realizing his demon Astaroth could be a good inquiry to study, the Japanese government experimented on him while keeping him alive as a political tool in Russia and because he was the one who captured him, Kato project which worked for was push through, resurrecting Kawashima as the Mutant Ape Ouka. However while experimenting on Nikolai, the demon manage to go out of control, escaping while unleashing monsters in his rampage. Meeting with Yuri who was in pursuit of him to get Nikolai, Kato agreed to ally with Yuri temporarily despite being ordered by the government to take them, quelling the monsters in the area.

After that, he reappears at Mt. Fuji trying to stop Astaroth who was planning to erupt it to destroy most of the world, again working with Yuri despite his orders. While trying to stop him, Kato rekindle his friendship with Yuri, and establish a proper bond with the Mutant Apes, even planning to enter a relationship with Ouka after seeing her as her own individual instead as a replacement bringing back a bit of the old Kato... until Nikolai reemerge after Astaroth's defeat and in his fury and confusion tried to kill Kato only to kill Ouka instead defending him. Kato snapped losing his love a 2nd time and brutally murdered Nikolai despite going against Japan's plans, before returning to the surface with his allies to bury Ouka.

Meeting with Yuri one last time, Kato gave him the location of Prime Minister Kantaro Ishimaru, the person who was responsible for Kato's mission and Nikolai's actions. He also told Yuri he was going to destroy the world, giving Yuri the Emigre Manuscript as a clue on how he'll do it and also told him a way to resurrect Alice, Yuri's lost lover with a siilar ritual to how he made Ouka. After dealing with Ishimaru and attempted but ultimately failing to resurrect Alice, though she was able to live long enough to give some last words to Yuri, they realize Kato's plan was to go back in time to remove the existence of this world and rebuild a new one.

Meeting him at the Asuka Stone Platform, he exchange some pleasantries with the group, even asking Yuri if he met Alice which he was thankful. There he explained his plans and after seeing Yuri's determination, Kato summoned the Gates of Times and told them he would be waiting for them at the peak before teleporting away. Once Yuri manage to reach him, he made some final remarks with Yuri's group before engaging with them in one last fight using his connections with the Mutant Apes and his own nihilism to become Susano-o. After his final defeat, Kato reveals to him that he was happy it ended this way since now the group can go to a future that they want which would allow them to fix the terrible state of the world, giving instructions on how to before saying a last thank you to Yuri before dying and fading away to the Gates of Time.

Is Kato Magnificent?

Yup, from the wimp sidekick of a villain later ally from the first game, to a badass and formidable foe int he 2nd, he was pretty much on top of everytime. While he was Ishimaru's followers for most the of the game, this was all for his plan to get back his love and when that fall apart it showed how he was actually above him, selling him out to Yuri knowing he can take him down and even was the rational one in his group, had they followed his advise, Nicolai's rampaging demon wouldn't have happen and their entire army wouldn't have fallen.

Heck, out of all the villains in the game he was the most successful, negotiating with Nicolai to be a pawn for Japan, kidnapping him for Japan even taking down Yuri to do so, resurrecting his love as Ouka though he did begin to fall in love with her as her own person, taking down Ishimaru by assisting Yuri with info and when he became nihilistic and wanted to rebuild the world he was still able to create the foundations for Yuri and co to fix the world and build the one they want even when they stop him. Hell, he was a big reason why Yuri was able to get the resolve to do so by encouraging him to see Alice one last time which set him up to fix what happened in the first game.

Too much of Bastard?

Nope, while he was willing to do some pretty reprehensible things like assist in arranging a war with Russia using Nicolai, be a major force for Ishimaru's grand scheme for world domination, and was going to wipe the existing world off of existence, he was still a true friend to Yuri, a great leader to the Mutant Apes, was even willing to sacrifice his life to protect Yuri from Nicolai, and was genuinely seen as a great man who just fell down a dark path due to his downtrodden luck. All of this is why he's highly respected by almost everyone, especially Yuri.

Final Verdict:

An easy keeper. It's really difficult who I love more, him or Albert Simon.

I actually got a quote from him which I'll post later.

Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Jun 20th 2020 at 1:07:16 AM

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#21393: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:20:41 AM

Here's the write up, tell me if it's too long.

  • Sergei Kravinoff, AKA. Kraven the Hunter, is one of Spiderman’s oldest and most honorable foes. Starting as a hunter in Africa, Kraven moved on to a far more dangerous prey in Spiderman. After failing numerous times Kraven decided to go on one last hunt, burying Spiderman alive and impersonating him in order to prove himself superior. Content with his success, Kraven kills himself in order to die with honor. Years later Kraven was unwillingly revived by his family and cursed so that “only the Spider can kill [him]” and killed most of his family for revenge. After cloning himself to get an heir, Kraven set up his grandest hunt yet, having animal themed villains hunted by big game hunters in Central Park. Abhorring both sides, Kraven intends for all of them to die. Kraven forces Spiderman to nearly kill the Lizard to save Black Cat and almost succeeds in getting killed by him. When Spiderman makes him realize the error of his ways, Kraven frees everyone from the park. Kraven then dons Spiderman’s outfit in order to trick his son into killing him permanently, leaving a note so his son will carry on his legacy.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#21395: Jun 20th 2020 at 5:02:01 AM

[tup]kraven and kato.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Giantleviathan Since: Apr, 2016
#21396: Jun 20th 2020 at 5:32:59 AM

Quick question: Has Jim Moriarty from Sherlock been evaluated?

Edited by Giantleviathan on Jun 20th 2020 at 5:34:07 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#21397: Jun 20th 2020 at 5:54:06 AM

He was, he was considered way too evil.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#21398: Jun 20th 2020 at 6:24:20 AM

[tup] to Kato

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#21399: Jun 20th 2020 at 6:33:48 AM

Yes to Kati and Giant you actually did an EP for Jim a few years back. While he’s clever and definitely has an Evil Is Cool thing going on, I can’t label him “Magnificent” when his foremost reason for doing what he does is watching people suffer. Great villain, not this.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#21400: Jun 20th 2020 at 7:29:08 AM

@ Clown, Maybe, it would be a tough sell by Lex's dislike of aliens is usually born of an intention to protect humanity.

@ papyru, That doesn't look too long man, go ahead and add buddy.

Edited by 43110 on Jun 20th 2020 at 10:46:20 AM


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