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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#2051: Jun 28th 2018 at 10:25:01 PM

So, I promised that I would give my opinion on Smallville's version of Zod a while back. I finally had the chance to go through the relevant material. You all owe me big. Smallville was just a terrible show. I've come to the conclusion that I don't think he counts, but I'll provide the Cole's notes version for the moment.

Anyway, Zod on Smallville is...complicated. In Season 5, he's The Man Behind the Man and Bigger Bad to Brainiac, who is trying to free him from the Phantom Zone. It turns out that unlike the other Phantoms in the Zone, who can possess any human on Earth upon release, Zod's Phantom underwent specific modifications that prevent him from doing so. Brainiac has to specially prepare a body for him—Lex's, after the initial plan to use Clark falls through. He hijacks Lex, and briefly goes on a rampage at the end of Season 5/start of Season 6, but is beaten and returned to the Phantom Zone. We also, find out that the reason Zod is locked up? He and Jor-El's brother, Zor-El, destroyed Krypton by ordering Brainiac, then the supercomputer that ran the place, to detonate the core after they found out they were losing the war.

Zod is again The Man Behind the Man and Bigger Bad in Season 7, when Brainiac returns and tries to alter the past to create a Bad Future where Lex is President Evil, and the world is destroyed by nuclear weapons just before Zod's return. He keeps the role in Season 8, where Brainiac, and his and his second wife, Faora's genetically engineered "son", Doomsday, are the villains. The General himself never appears in either season, but he's the one Brainiac is again working with, and Faora appears in a key episode in Season 8 to manipulate Doomsday into embracing his true nature.

In Season 9, we meet Major Zod, a clone of General Zod before he turned traitor. He has an entire clone army of other Kryptonians with him, though none of them have their powers, Jor-El having irradiated the sphere their DNA was contained in with Blue K (there is also a clone of Jor-El in the sphere). Major Zod is the Big Bad of the Season, and proves himself one of the most competent in the history of the show. He manipulates Tess Mercer, Clark, and his own army with ruthless ease, nearly turns Earth's son red in order to build New Krypton, is responsible for yet another Bad Future, and frames Clark for the murder of clone!Faora after she turns on him; he eventually regains his powers, gives his army his powers, and goes on a rampage around the world, destroying Checkmate headquarters, seemingly killing Amanda Waller and her Suicide Squad, and only narrowly being beaten by Clark in the season finale.

In Season 10, Clark travels to the Phantom Zone where he discovers that the Kandorian clones exiled Major Zod to the Phantom Zone. While there, he encountered the Phantom of the original General Zod, and the two of them cut a deal with Darkseid to fuse into a single being. This merged Zod conquered the Phantom Zone in his own name and that of Darkseid, then tries to manipulate Clark and Oliver Queen (Green Arrow) into killing each other. He's last scene raging in the Phantom Zone after they escape.

Anyway, I think that Zod has all the qualities of a Magnificent Bastard, but does not have all of them at the same time. The General (when his host's emotions aren't interfering with him) is classy and controlled, while also menacingly cold. He's got back up plans among back up plans, as evidenced by Brainiac, Doomsday, and the clones. However, he's also undone twice over by fairly obvious ruses, with first Clark, and later Oliver, exploiting his need to have someone submit to him.

Major Zod, conversely, is one of the best chessmasters and manipulators on the show, and gets the better of everyone from Clark to Tess to Amanda Waller (who, in a sidenote, was well-cast for once, with Pam Grier taking the role). He is also, however, a screaming, ranting psychotic, whose Villainous Breakdown consumes almost the entirety of a season; most of Season 9 is spent watching Major Zod degenerate into madness and worrying about how many people he's going to take down with him. See here for his final descent into madness during his last fight with Clark.

The merged Zod of Season 10, comes close, combining the General's coldness and gravitas, with the Major's intelligence. However, he also combines both their weaknesses, taking on the General's arrogance (hence falling for the aforementioned ruse of Oliver's) and the Major's deep-seated need to unleash violence on Clark at every possible opportunity. He's also only around for an episode.

Anyway, if we still want a proper effort post, I can provide one, though it would be one of the weirder ones I've ever done. Personally, while he hits all the criteria at various points in his career, I think including him might be stretching a point. Opinions?

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#2052: Jun 28th 2018 at 10:47:14 PM

[up] Go for the Effort-post

[tup] Ganondorf

Speaking of Legend Of Zelda, what about Yuga from The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds?

I looked at his MB entry and it says this:

Then I looked at his Smug Snake entry

  • Smug Snake: Subverted. Like Chancellor Cole in Spirit Tracks, he's perpetually arrogant and smug, but proves to be an effective threat.

I know we can't have straight examples of a Smug Snake counting, but can a subversion of a Smug Snake count especially when said subversion managed to do the impossible and Hijack Ganon.

Edited by G-Editor on Jun 28th 2018 at 7:47:44 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#2053: Jun 28th 2018 at 10:48:21 PM

I'll give a yes to Ganondorf...though I do have to note how badly he degenerates in Breath of the Wild. Are timeline issues at play there? And nay to Zod, which is a shame.

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#2054: Jun 28th 2018 at 11:08:20 PM

[up][up] I haven't touched Link Between Worlds, so I can't do much about that one. I know that Ganon's only there for like three seconds before getting dunked on.

[up] Officially, we have no record of where Breath of the Wild is on the timeline, but it's almost certainly late in the "Downfall" one - which, as I mentioned, features Ganon steadily losing his mind to his own power and what is implied to be Demise's curse, which are both out of his hands. Breath itself all but states that Demise's curse is the only thing left of old Dorfy.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#2055: Jun 29th 2018 at 12:05:52 AM

Speaking of Zod, let's talk about the comic book one like I promised. A note on continuity: we will be dealing with the Post-Crisis Zod here. Now, because of the ban on Kryptonian characters, writers weren't allowed to use Zod for some years, but, given his iconic status, most found ways around this, and various alternate universe doppelgangers, clones, and possessed humans danced in the original Zod's shoes until 2006, when the comics brought back the original Zod with a vengeance. I can't speak to the New 52; the version of Zod under discussion here existed in continuity from 2006-2011.

Who is General Zod? What has he done?

General Dru-Zod II was the leader of Krypton's Military Guild and a friend and ally of Superman's father, Jor-El, and Jor-El's mentor, Non. When Jor-El discovered that their world was going to explode, Zod and Non believed Jor-El. Non was immediately lobotomized by Krypton's Supreme Council for this, and Zod and his wife, Ursa, in a fury, attempted a coup d'etat. Defeated, not least because Jor-El refused to support the coup, Zod was slated to be executed but Jor-El argued for their lives, and in the end Zod, Ursa, Non, and their other key lieutenants were sent to the Phantom Zone.

Zod and Ursa have a son, Lor-Zod, while in the Phantom Zone. Unlike them, he has a physical body, and they send him to the real world, where, in the "Last Son" arc he is briefly adopted by Clark and Lois as "Chris Kent". This is all part of a ruse however that sees Zod and his army freed from the Phantom Zone, and Superman banished to it. With Superman out of the way, Zod swiftly conquers Metropolis, crushing the Justice League, Justice Society, and American Army alike when they oppose him. Superman, with the aid of Mon-El, escapes the Phantom Zone and, in alliance with Lex Luthor and the Superman Revenge Squad, banishes Zod to the Phantom Zone again; Zod nearly takes Superman with him but is prevented by Chris Kent, who tackles his father into the Zone to save Superman.

Zod returns during the events of "New Krypton", when Alura Zor-El, Supergirl's mother, in her grief and horror over Zor-El's murder at the hands of human supervillain (and Supergirl archenemy) Reactron, raises New Krypton into space and releases Zod to lead Krypton's military. Superman is drafted into Zod's Military Guild as "Commander El" and despite mutual trust and dislike, the two build a working relationship. Over the course of "World of New Krypton" Zod engineers Superman's arrest for treason, only to magnanimously spare him, demonstrating to the public that his feud with the House of El is over, and securing him public support. When incapacitated by an assassination attempt he has Superman act as his Deputy General, further winning him public support, and gaining credit for Alura's decision to finally allow the Labour Guild representation on the Supreme Council. By the end of the arc, Zod has regained his position as Krypton's most popular military hero.

When Brainiac invades New Krypton during "Last Stand of New Krypton," Zod masterminds the defense against him. He eventually leads a decapitation strike into Brainiac's ship, where he defeats the alien conqueror in single combat, cementing himself as the man who saved New Krypton. With the rest of the Council save Alura killed during Brainiac's invasion, Zod declares himself New Krypton's leader, and in a populist speech on the balcony of the Council building urges all 100 000 of New Krypton's citizens to join him in his invasion of Earth. When Superman tries to interfere, Zod, Ursa, and Non pummel him into submission. Zod informs Superman that he has a spy inside General Sam Lane's Earth Defence Corps, and knows that Lane was behind multiple assassination attempts on New Kryptonian figures, including himself, and is planning to invade New Krypton. He then gloats to Superman that he'd never pretend this isn't personal, and he's going to enjoy destroying everything Kal-El loves, and orders his forces to attack.

At this point, Zod finds out that Lane and more importantly, Luthor, have stolen a march on him. Unknown to Zod, Alura is keeping Reactron prisoner on New Krypton so she can control him. Luthor transforms Reactron into a bomb, blowing up New Krypton and killing 80 percent of the population. When Zod's forces arrive in orbit, Luthor then unleashes a clone of Rao, Krypton's God of the Sun, and uses it to depower thousands more Kryptonians, sending them plummeting out of the sky to their deaths. In this chaos, Superman escapes Zod. Thousands of Kryptonians still survive however, and Zod moves to Earth to inaugurate the 100 Minute War, aka "War of the Supermen." While his forces occupy most of the planet, and annihilate the EDC bases in the rest of the Solar System, he has Ursa speed around the world, assassinating dozens of world leaders, and only narrowly missing the President of the United States (she does slaughter all his superhero guards).

Ursa's stopped by Supergirl and Krypto, while Superboy uses the Phantom Zone projector to trap Non, and then the subdued Ursa. Zod moves to Metropolis for a final showdown with Superman, and comes within a hairsbreadth of defeating him. In the end, Superboy activates the Phantom Zone projector and all of Zod's soldiers are sucked in. Superman tackles Zod himself, intending to join the General in the Phantom Zone and act as his jailer, but Lor-Zod/Chris Kent, freed from the Zone during this arc, intervenes and sets Superman free before dragging his father back to the Zone himself.

What is his competition like? How does he perform against them?

Zod personally defeated Brainaic, and his army bested every member of the Earth Defense Corps not named Metallo. He sidelined Alura, herself a major villain in the arc, and made himself ruler of New Krypton, manipulating Superman into helping him at multiple points along the way. While Lane and Luthor's gambit with Reactron cost him dearly, it was ultimately a fight that Lane could not win, since even with a badly reduced army, Zod was still winning the war until Superman rallied the JLA and JSA against him.

The only villain to consistently outshine Zod in storylines they share is Lex Luthor. And being Out-Gambitted by Lex Luthor and Lex Luthor alone does not say bad things about your credentials for this trope.

Is he a Chessmaster? A Manipulative Bastard? Is he capable of thinking on his feet?

As a Kryptonian and a military man, Zod has no qualms about relying on brute force when brute force is liable to be enough. There's no need to scheme a man's downfall when you can just beat him into submission after all. "World of New Krypton" and "Last Stand of New Krypton" show, however, that Zod is fully capable of being a canny political and populist hero, eventually convincing a majority of New Kryptonians to follow him in place of their original leaders. Even Superman joining his army could not stop Zod's machinations; on the contrary they provided Zod with the chance to appear to have buried the hatchet with the House of El, and regain all the popularity he had lost in the intervening years.

Brainiac's assault on New Krypton was unexpected, but Zod was able to turn it to his advantage, with his victory over Brainiac being the last element he needed to transform New Krypton into a junta with himself at the head. He did not see Luthor's final two attacks coming either, but demonstrates that in the end, even losing more than eighty percent of his forces cannot stop him from conquering the world, and in the end, he's the better tactician than Lane, forcing Superman to save the Earth from a war that it cannot hope to win.

How much of a Bastard is he? Does he have redeeming features? Is he capable of being charismatic?

Zod is a military dictator who spurns democracy, and views himself as the one man who can lead Krypton (later New Krypton). He's guilty of treason, mass murder, and worse, and makes no bones about his end goal being a genocide of all humans, so that he can build a New Krypton on the ruins of the world Superman loves. Among the prominent Superman rogues only Brainiac and Mongul the Elder have higher attempted bodycounts than Zod, and nobody save Luthor hates Superman more.

Zod does genuinely believe in the greatness of his fellow Kryptonians, and in his private thoughts, we see his pride in his army, and his sadness at each death that occurs within it. He's genuinely horrorstruck by Luthor's destruction of New Krypton, and considers Superman a traitor to the race by trying to protect a world that would shelter Luthor. While an abusive and callous father to Lor-Zod, he does seem to have some genuine effect for his (thoroughly psychotic) wife, Ursa, and years after Non was reduced to a mentally handicapped hulk, is still looking out for, and enraged by what happened to, his former friend. And of course his anger at the House of El, stems from his deeply held, if wrongful, belief that had Jor-El not stopped him he could have saved Krypton from destruction. As he lectures Superman at one point, "Had your father embraced violence at my side, Krypton would have been saved. You wouldn't have to live the life of an outsider on this primitive world, hiding what you truly are, who you truly are. Living a lie to gain any amount of acceptance. You would have had a family, Kal-El, a 'super son' of your own. Jor-El not only failed Krypton...Jor-El failed you!"

As for the charisma factor, Zod made himself the leader of a populist junta, by playing to the citizenry's desire for safety. Along the way he convinced everyone, including people who know what he did during Krypton's last days, to trust him. Even Superman was prepared to consider the possibility that Zod might be turning over a new leaf, which given that Superman has no cause to trust Zod, speaks volumes about the man's ability to give the impression of sincerity. From the perspective of the reader, he's by far the most sympathetic of the villains of "New Krypton" when compared to Smug Snake and General Ripper Sam Lane, Complete Monster candidate and emotionless cyborg Brainiac, Complete Monster candidate and cackling lunatic Reactron, brutish thugs Metallo and Gor, icy Evil Matriarch Alura, or even his own wife, the fanatically sadistic Ursa. Only Luthor matches his combination of charisma and audience sympathy, and of the two, Zod's easily the more likable, seeing as "New Krypton" features Luthor at his murderous worst.

Final verdict?

General Zod is the clearest possible keeper in the Post-Crisis continuity who isn't Lex Luthor, and only Luthor is really capable of standing with him. He's the last man standing among the Big Bad Ensemble (Brainiac, Sam Lane, and himself) of the multi-issue, multi-year "New Krypton" event, and in doing so, introduced himself to a new generation of readers as one of the definitive Superman foes.

Thoughts?

Edited by AmbarSonofDeshar on Jun 29th 2018 at 12:21:49 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#2056: Jun 29th 2018 at 1:43:01 AM

[tup]Mayor Wilkins (Still one of the best Buffy villains even years later).

[tup]Lord ruler

[tup]Ganondorf

[tup]General Zod

Edited by miraculous on Jun 29th 2018 at 1:46:18 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#2058: Jun 29th 2018 at 9:08:33 AM

Sure to the Zod that got an EP.

SophiaLonesoul Since: Apr, 2012
#2059: Jun 29th 2018 at 9:11:03 AM

I agree with Ambar that the Smallville version of Zod doesn't have the required criteria at the same time and from that can't really count.

Post-Crisis Zod, on the other hand, does qualify for MB.

[tup]Mayor Wilkins [tup]Rasputin

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#2060: Jun 29th 2018 at 10:45:22 AM

[tup] General Dru-Zod II. I Love to Hate Zod. And you are right, he is the most sympathetic of the New Krypton villains.

Also. Yuga is too evil to count on this trope.

Sorry for being absent

Watch me destroying my country
ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#2061: Jun 29th 2018 at 11:18:45 AM

Yuga is a bit too evil. She's smart, but she's an Omnicidal Maniac and I'm pretty sure she's a CM.

[tup] Post Crisis Zod

[tup] Ganondorf

Edited by ReynTime250 on Jun 29th 2018 at 7:21:19 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#2062: Jun 29th 2018 at 12:06:50 PM

Gonna weigh in on say Yuga definitely doesn't count: evil as hell and him being both smug and threatening doesn't mean he subverts being a Smug Snake. He can be both a threat and exceedingly smug and arrogant.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2065: Jun 29th 2018 at 11:26:00 PM

[tup] to Ganon/Ganondorf of A Link to the Past, Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess (And as a bonus, Hyrule Warriors for his manipulation of Cia and nearly winning in that game).

Tentative [tup] to Ganondorf of Ocarina of Time since he did have a really beastly, rage inducing Villainous Breakdown at the end of the duel, ending with him screaming of how he's going to kill everyone's descendants. But then again, that Ganon became Ganondorf of the Wind Waker.

[tdown] to Post-A Link to the Past Ganon, Ganondorf of FSA (Too much of a Smug Snake in that game given that his manipulation is rather simple and his evil plan is just getting a trident and becoming Ganon), Breath of the Wild Ganon (A raging, screaming beast who gets contained by Zelda for a hundred years despite successfully wiping up the Champions and most of Hyrule, invalidating whatever cunningness he may have as Ganondorf), and CD-i Ganon (for obvious reasons tongue).

Overall, [tup] to Ganon.

Edited by Shadao on Jun 29th 2018 at 11:30:30 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#2066: Jun 30th 2018 at 7:39:12 AM

I found this on the Utena YMMV page.

* Magnificent Bastard: Akio, also a Manipulative Bastard. Touga aspires to be like him. Ruka tries to be one for his own reasons. And Saionji tries as well...and fails miserably at it.

I deleted it ASAP because while I haven't watched the series (Heresy, I know), Akio just sounds too damn disgusting. He's basically a serial emotional abuser, a rapist in a pretty messed up relationship with his little sister and a all around disgusting asshole with a facade of greatness. A friend of mine that watched the series defined him as basically "just a classy manchildren that acts like a adult but with no actual maturity".

And the entry is badly written. Heck, a MB have'" to be'' a Manipulative Bastard to be on the list.

Trope Decay at it's finest.

Watch me destroying my country
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#2067: Jun 30th 2018 at 8:27:18 AM

Absolutely cut Akio. He's a pathetic, immature manchild at the end of the day.

My other crossover for this weekend...

What's the work?

Baldur's Gate 2 is one of the best computer RP Gs in history. Set in the Forgotten realms Dungeons and Dragons world, the premise is pretty simple: You, the PC? You are one of the many children of the wicked God of Murder, Bhaal. Now, Bhaal? Seeing his impending demise, fathered countless children on multiple different species, intending on using them to bring him back to life. You manage to go off script and defeat you evil half brother Sarevok in part 1, who intends to revive dad. In part 2? Things...have gone wrong. you wake up in a dungeon, where you're being held captive by a mysterious wizard. Enter...Jon Irenicus.

Who is Jon Irenicus?

The main villain of the game, Irenicus's backstory is steadily revealed over the course of the game. Once? He was an elven sorcerer named Jonoleth. Unfortunately, he was unsatisfied with the power he had an attempted to become a god, to drain the power from he sacred tree and rise to dominate the Elven Pantheon, the Seldarine. He was stopped, with his conspirator Bodhi. His lover, Queen Ellesime, inflicted the worst punishment imaginable: they were stripped of their souls and elven essence, banished and exiled. Jonoleth abandoned his name, taking the name Irenicus...or 'shattered one' in his old tongue.

However, the elves did nothing to their powers, so now you have a guy who is already one of the top three strongest mortal mages alive, who is quite understandably enraged and bitter about the affair, has a limited lifespan and, oh, yeah, nothing more to lose. Nice going, elves. Thanks a lot for planning this out oh so well!

Anyways...Bodhi tried vampirism to get out of this, but it didn't work. Irenicus began to research and he realized there could be a way back...he would need the essence of a god. He targets the PC and his half-sister Imoen. Now, at the start of the game? Irenicus has totally beaten you, has you in his dungeon and is torturing you to make you awaken the essence of the God of Murder. While you escape, Irenicus is in contorl of the situation, leading to a battle in the nearby city. However, the magic patrol arrives to take Irenicus into custody for unauthorized sorcery use. Irenicus easily wrecks them, but decides he can turn it to his advantage, saying sure, arrest him, but take Imoen (who used magic as well) with him. They oblige and Irenicus calmly chills in a cell for a little bit as the PC is left to gather strength and allies for a way to free them.

Cue Irenicus breaking out of his cell with contemptuous ease and an amazing line: "I cannot be caged! I cannot be controlled! Understand this as you die ever pathetic, ever fools!" Before he makes their base his own. Oh, and one of your top allies? Is Irenicus's own spy, leading you exactly where he needs you. After prepping his rituals perfectly, Irenicus lures you into a trap, whips your rear end, tricks you into unleashing Bhaal's essence and steals yours and Imoen's soul for himself and Bodhi, eliminating all his problems. He then skips off to the underground realm, the Underdark as you attempt to pursue him.

Irenicus? Enlists the drow, the evil underground dark elves, into an army to attack his old home of Suldanessalar,along with roping in a few dragons for it. Irenicus? Plays the drow to a T, using them as a front for him so he can waltz in, attack Suldanessalar with his real forces, get to the divine tree, drain it and ascend to godhood. He gets within inches of this beofre you confront him for the final battle. In the ensuing fight, Irenicus is killed....and refusing to give up, drags you to hell with him, prompting a final duel there. Finally defeated, you escape hell, leaving Irenicus to furiously rage at his fate as he is beset by a group of demons. Some great mods, though? Have added paths where he can even be redeemed and recruited. God, I love the BG 2 fan community.

So is he charming? Charismatic? A planner?

Irenicus leads you around by the leash for most of the game. Everything you do furthers his purposes and his plans. As for charm and charisma? He's voiced by David Warner, who lends an exceptional gravitas to the character, with terrific line after terrific line. He is utterly compelling, even at his worst.

Manipulation-wise...nobody else comes close. The drow are a race designed to have ridiculously complex plots left and right and Irenicus plays them with contemptuous ease. He has an entire pantheon at his mercy by the end and comes within inches of succeeding in his goals.

Is he a bastard? Too much??'

He's a murderer, a torturer, who commits unholy sacrilege on the elves' most sacred sites. Let's be pretty clear on this: Irenicus is a real bastard and thinks nothing of sacrificing lives to his goals and purposes. When one man, used in the ritual that requires the sacrifice of the subjects screams he doesn't want to do, Irenicus casually retorts "you have no purpose but to die by my hand."

That said, he never gets up to any utterly disgusting crimes. The torture of you and Imoen and his murder of some of your companions from game one is done with purpose, and when Imoen accuses Irenicus of torturing them, he responds "Torture? Silly child, you don't understand what I'm doing, do you?" It's all to make you awaken Bhaal's essence so he can steal it. And...credit where it's due, while Irnicus abandons all redeeming qualities and was a power hungry usurper from the start, the elves stealing his soul made him desperate and denied him the essence of his elven heritage that has increasingly twisted him. He's a CM but a remarkably complex one, and before he goes back to 'become a god', his motives are 'let's stay alive'....he gives a wrathful speech to Ellesime that cements his tragedy and evil at the same time at the end, when she begs him to stand down and recall their love: "I...I no longer remember your love, Ellesime. I have tried to. I have tried to recreate it, to spark it anew in my memory. But it is gone... a hollow, dead thing. For years, I clung to the memory of it. Then the memory of the memory. And then nothing. The Seldarine took that from me, too. I look upon you and I feel nothing. I remember nothing but you turning your back on me, along with all the others. Once my thirst for power was everything. And now I hunger only for revenge. And... I... Will... HAVE IT!!"

And lemme say this...when he realizes he's done for, being surrounded by hungry demons? He goes down swinging.

Conclusion?

One of the great villains from an RPG ever and a great keeper.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#2068: Jun 30th 2018 at 8:31:47 AM

Tentative yea for Irenicus...That quote in the bastard section could be nice for a CM quotes page to be completely honest.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#2069: Jun 30th 2018 at 8:41:05 AM

[tup] To Irenicus

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#2070: Jun 30th 2018 at 8:53:36 AM

[tup]Irenicus

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#2071: Jun 30th 2018 at 9:11:16 AM

I'll give a weak but firm yea for Irenicus. He's nasty but not so much it undermines his magnificence and I'm willing to cut slack for more brutal characters when they stick to being ruthlessly pragmatic as opposed to delving into sadistic satisfaction.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#2072: Jun 30th 2018 at 10:13:25 AM

One more before I do writeups...a classic example, too.

From DC comics....Vertigo to be explicit. John Constantine. Hellblazer.

Who is John Constantine?

I'll let Hellblazer itself tell you: "“There’s been a lot said about John Constantine, all right, and everyone who’s known him has their own pet theory. Really, though, he’s just a man. Perhaps one day, if we let him, he can be a hero.”

John is a conman, a minor league magician who tangles with the worst of the supernatural monstrosities of the DC universe. He's acerbic, caustic, nasty, warm, self destructive, loyal, selfish, selfless, dangerous to know and an adrenaline junkie. John first tangled with the supernatural at a place called Newcastle where he and some of his friends conjured up a demon...it went wrong and a little girl named Astra was damned to hell. John lost his mind and went to an asylum for years. He became a selfish wastrel, but the lure of the supernatural pulls him back in...often to help with worse threats. So, how bout that magnificence? As Hellblazer stands 300 issues, plus John's appearances all throughout, I'm gonna cliffnotes this something fierce:

In Books of Magic, John is in a room filled with supernatural nasties chomping at the bit to turn him in inside out. John cheerfully begins listing all his accomplishments, all he's done, all the asses he's kicked and names he's taken and then invites the first taker to have a piece....they back down, and John then reveals...this was all stuff he made up on the spot, with a cheeky grin.

Now, in the first issue of Hellblazer? John's old buddy Gary Lester released a demon of hunger and gluttony. John is forced to contain it, and the way he does this? Set up a trap and lure the demon in...using poor Gary as a container so he and the demon will consume one another. Oh, another instance? A demonic soccer hooligan with multiple heads is on the attack. John deals with it by asking "whaddya do on sunday, lads?" and letting it beat itself to death when they disagree on which team is the best

Now, in another arc, John visits a dying friend and the two share drinks. See, this friend? Traded his soul to the First of the Fallen (NOT Lucifer, there's a huge difference between the Magnificent Bastard devil and this guy) in exchange for the greatest alcohol collection known to man with a caveat that if the First can't collect by midnight, his soul goes to heaven. John toasts the devil to his good fortune...except he turned the stout they're drinking to holy water, tearing the devil's body apart. The devil, naturally is enraged by this and has designs on John's soul...and John is dying of lung cancer due to smoking like 5 packs a day. The devil shows up to collect...and it turns out John outwits them fucking utterly by selling his soul to the First's two brothers as well, knowing none of them will relinquish their claim on him, even consider an alliance, and going to war will tear hell apart...meaning they have to, shall we say, heal him and keep him healthy, even healing his cancer. John ends up flipping the trio the finger with a cheery "up yours."

Now, John is also dealing with the archangel Gabriel, so he figures out a way to handle him (Gabriel's a dick, but still)...he has his succubus ally Ellie (Who hates Gabriel for murdering her angel lover) seduce Gabriel and sleep with him...and then tear out his heart, resulting in gabriel cast out of heaven, completely in John's power for a damn long time.

In one arc? It turns out a noble summons a blade demon (the same one that possesse Jack the Rip, Calibraxis) into a member of the royal family. John manages to outplay them, seal up the demon and has it possess said noble, tricking the demon into eating its host and casting it back to hell.

Another time, just to show John Constantine will be John Constantine...John has an extended arc where he's lost his memory. A nemesis of his has him captured and decides to auction him off to his enemies when the First shows up, hungering for John to torture forever. John goes into an extended rant about how he's John Constantine, and do your worst because...he then stops short and goes "I'm sorry, let me try again, I'll remember the rest..."

The First: ....he's conveniently lost his memory so he can't be questioned. Hmmm...

John plays completely innocent, resulting in said nemesis being hauled off to hell by the First while he escapes it.

Really, I can go on a damn long time. The stories are replete with John manipulating, out-gambitting and defeating others. You get the idea.

Is he charming? Charismatic? A manipulator?

Mike Carey, who wrote Lucifer and Hellblazer both once said that if Lucifer and John were to ever go up against one another, Lucifer would win...but he may find out later he was missing his wallet. John is a born conman. He leads people on easily, he plays people like nobody's business. He's friendly, charming when he wants to be and unmistakably charismatic. He does have his moments when he crahses, but he inevitably picks himself back up. But as you can see above, John is a king of planning and making shit up right on the fly.

Is he a bastard? Too much?

Someone put on his tropes page he's less a hero and more an enemy to worse people. This is absolutely true. John is a very, very, very complex man. He's selfish, narcissistic, self-destructive and knowing him is painful. The very first storyline he ever appears in is him cheerfully manipulating Swamp Thing. He has a romance with Zatanna, but gets her father killed fighting a group of witches called the Brujeria. His first Hellblazer story? He sacrifices a friend to contain a gluttony demon, knowing what it means. He has Gabriel cast out of heaven and cripples him largely because Gabriel was a dick to him. John does awful fucking things in his series and sometimes he even enjoys them.

that said...as I said. Complex. John has a streak of heroism that mixes in with his adrenaline junkie nature. He loves those close to him, even if he can be a self pitying bastard. He does at times try real hard to do the right thing. With Calibraxis, he decides to help because he refuses to let a thing like Calibraxis run rampant on earth. He loves his niece Gemma, and he does have standards. For instance, when he learns a friend of his whose things he was minding? The guy was selling victim locations to a serial killer in exchange for souvenirs. John is revolted and horrified and goes to kill said serial killer to save lives (even if he's never killed a human being with his own hands before). John is guilt-stricken by what happened to Astra and in one clever manipulation ends up freeing all the children trapped in hell to send them to heaven. He puts his own soul on the line to save another friend from the First of the Fallen and in another arc? John helps a guy seemingly haunted by a demon, but when he learns the guy sacrificed his own newborn baby to the demon years ago and is going to give it another infant, John saves the baby and icily tells the man if he tries to escape the demon, John will kill him with his own hands.

John is a man of contradiction. A lot of his good traits are very...negotiable, but he has a moral core to him. He's just a right and out prick at times.

Conclusion?

Utter yes, should not even be a question

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#2073: Jun 30th 2018 at 10:16:21 AM

[tup]John Constantine

One of DC's coolest characters.

Edited by miraculous on Jun 30th 2018 at 10:16:14 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#2074: Jun 30th 2018 at 10:23:48 AM

A (formal) yea for Constantine.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#2075: Jun 30th 2018 at 10:24:18 AM

[tup] to Constantine

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."

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