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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#20626: Jun 6th 2020 at 10:44:21 PM

My main issue was always how she was all "this doesn't count" when Mrs. Incredible saved her. Just screams Sore Loser to me. Brainwashing a pizza delivery guy for being late is a minor one.

Edited by AustinDR on Jun 6th 2020 at 10:45:41 AM

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#20627: Jun 6th 2020 at 10:55:58 PM

Honestly, I wasn't sure on that part. Sore Loser or Defiant to the End, I didn't knew how other people saw it. I thought more of the latter when she was willing to let herself die, but I can easily see why you'd think more about the former.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#20628: Jun 6th 2020 at 10:57:19 PM

Yeah. Just came off as being too much of an Ungrateful Bitch moment for her.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#20629: Jun 6th 2020 at 11:08:20 PM

[tup] to the Red Death. Abstain on the Screenslaver

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#20630: Jun 6th 2020 at 11:25:22 PM

Giving a very weak [tup] to Evelyn.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#20631: Jun 6th 2020 at 11:29:10 PM

I might vote on Shere Khan tomorrow.

Exact quote from Evelyn is: “Just because you saved me, doesn’t mean you’re right.” I did not interpret it as petty or ungrateful, there seemed to be a little respect in the tone. I viewed it as she has her principles and is sticking to them.

[tup] to Beckett, [tup] to Walsingham (though I have only seen the first movie) and [tup] to Screenslaver.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#20632: Jun 6th 2020 at 11:30:00 PM

I mean it's fine if you interpret it as such.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#20635: Jun 7th 2020 at 2:31:35 AM

Abstaining on Evelyn, at least for now.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#20636: Jun 7th 2020 at 3:29:04 AM

Unsure on Evelyn.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#20637: Jun 7th 2020 at 4:01:51 AM

[tup] to Red Death.

I'll abstain on Evelyn.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#20638: Jun 7th 2020 at 4:16:35 AM

No on Screensaver. Very good effortpost and counter arguments but having seen that I have to stick by my gut. She does not keep it together when her plans unravel, and is presented as stubborn to the point of pettiness. Being a condescending Sore Loser isn't a recovery.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#20639: Jun 7th 2020 at 5:57:44 AM

[tup]Red Death.

Not sure on Evelyn

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#20640: Jun 7th 2020 at 6:43:29 AM

[tup] for Shere Khan, Becket and Red Death

[tdown] for Evelyn. The Ungrateful Bitch and Evil Is Petty elements knock her down for me.

Kitsu7 Since: Feb, 2020
#20641: Jun 7th 2020 at 7:18:01 AM

[tup]Tobias and Red Death

Hesitant [tup]Screenslaver too, I agree more with the "stick to her principles" interpretation of her last line I think.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20642: Jun 7th 2020 at 7:20:03 AM

Leaning no on Evelyn, reading through it all.

Also this is what's going up this week:

"If I am ever defeated or dishonored— If I ever act in ways unworthy of myself... If I ever die... The word goes out: 'It must have been a Doombot'...Doom cannot fit in such small containers. I am not my body. Not my mind. I am... I am the old trunk, filled with ancient mysteries. I am the explosion in the college laboratory. I am the mask that burns with the fires of vengeance. I am the legend that unites this nation. I am the story of Doom."
  • Dragon Ball franchise:
    • Original manga: Demon King Piccolo formed after the Nameless Namek who would become Kami expelled his evil became Earth's most dangerous threat yet. His previous reign thwarted when the martial artist Mutaito performed a Heroic Sacrifice to seal him away. Released centuries later, he showed he had learned from his prior defeat snding his children to hunt down and dispose of every martial artist in the world as a precaution. When Goku kills his children, rather than shrug off their deaths Piccolo confronts the problem directly, beating Goku so thoroughly that his heart stops. Coming into conflict with Roshi, Piccolo lets Roshi hide his Dragonballs and swallows his own, then summons Shenron to restore his youth, killing the eternal dragon after his wish has been fulfilled. Continuing his dark reign over the Earth, King Piccolo all but wins. Even after his death the demon king spits out an egg that carries his reincarnation to finish where he left off. As cool as he was evil, King Piccolo was fondly remembered for being one of the first truly threatening adversaries.
    • Super: Hit, introduced in the "Champa Arc", is an assassin from Universe 6 with the power to "Time-Skip", famed for always fulfilling his contracts without leaving a trace. Despite his cold professionalism, Hit always abides by a code of honor and goes out of his way to avoid unnecessary casualties when performing his contracts. Initially joining Champa's tournament for personal gain, Hit finds an adversary providing him a challenge in Goku for the first time, a sentiment that causes him to fake his defeat to show that he is not Champa's pawn. Later hired by a client to assassinate Goku, Hit swiftly dispatches the Saiyan before he could attack, promising to pay his respects to his seemingly slain rival, who was only saved by his own quick thinking. In the Tournament of Power, Hit rarely loses his cool in the heat of battle and simply shifts tactics whenever his opponents find ways to counter his signature Time-Skip. Even when he's physically outmatched by the mighty Jiren, Hit nearly rings out the Pride Trooper by using a variety of tactics and techniques, a feat that was previously deemed impossible.
  • The Promised Neverland:
    • Isabella was once a child raised in the Farm system, chosen to become a "Mama" to raise other children to be fed to the demons. Upon realizing that some of her charges have learned the truth, Isabella requests a helper in Sister Krone, before constantly outplaying the children and foiling their plans. Setting up Krone to take the fall and eliminating her when she proves too ambitious, Isabella initially defeats the kids, but manages to secure the life of Norman by giving him to a secret group. Gracefully acknowledging her later defeat, Isabella is put in charge of all other Mamas and eventually inspires them to rebel against the Farm system, overcoming and defeating their oppressors to seize the future.
    • Archduke Leuvis is a demon who lives for the thrill of combat. Latching on to Emma as his worthy adversary, Leuvis shows himself to be fully willing to offer up his own weaknesses and to arm his opponents to equal the playing field and once his comrades are dead, engages Emma and her friends with a shockingly display of combat instinct and battle tactics, completely seeing through everything Emma's team does while countering until he is finally cornered. Even upon dealing Emma a seemingly fatal wound, Leuvis is courteous and respectful to her, thinking how much he loves humans for their ingenuity, unlike his fellow demons who consider them lesser beings and only fit for food. Returning from the dead, Leuvis manages to diffuse the rage of the demon populace, helping to end the oppressive system and place Mujika on the throne. A demon of shocking charm and charisma, Leuvis proves why he is the most deadly adversary yet encountered by Emma and her friends.
  • Airborne (1998): Bob Murdoch is a high ranking officer for Mach One. A smart, yet callous agent, Murdoch knows there’s a mole working for Pierre Melo hiding amongst the team once they acquire the deadly virus. Unsure if it’s either Bill McNeil or Ron Simpson, Murdoch plants a fake virus for Mach One and Dave Toombs to acquire in a chemical plant, not telling anyone in Mach One about his plan and willing to have them risk their lives to find Melo. Figuring out that Simpson was Melo after tracing his call with Toombs, Murdoch watches as Mach One kills Simpson, exposing his plan to his team knowing that they’ll hate him for not telling them about the fake virus.
  • Elizabeth: Sir Francis Walsingham, Elizabeth's ruthless chief spymaster, is introduced bedazzling a young assassin with flowery words of God and the world's beauty to sway him from his path before slashing his throat. Seeking to secure Elizabeth's throne, Walsingham assassinates Mary of Guise to turn France's anger to the throne so he may ferret out traitors and strengthen Elizbeth's hold. Torturing a priest for the list of traitors, Walsingham organizes their complete annihilation, remaining loyal to Elizabeth for the remainder of his life.
  • The Italian Job (2003): Charlie Croker is a master thief in the heist team of career thief John Bridger and has "been a thief since [he's] had baby teeth". He plans the titular job in Venice perfectly, with each member of the team's skills utilized to successfully steal gold bricks valued at $35 million. When Steve Frazelli betrays and murders John, nearly kills the rest of the team and steals all the gold for himself, Charlie hatches a scheme to steal the gold back and avenge John. Charlie once again orchestrates another heist in LA while getting John's daughter Stella to step in as safe cracker and gasses the guards Steve hired to protect the safe. After a miraculous escape through the city streets, Charlie reveals he made a deal with Ukrainian mobster Mashkov to dispose of Steve once and for all.
  • Non-Stop: Tom Bowen is a Marine set to prove the lack of safety in the American airline security after his father's death during the September 11th, 2001 terrorist attack. Taking over a plane with Zach White, he threatens to routinely murder passengers while keeping the heroes at bay and ensures the Transportation Security Administration Agency is informed of the threat presented. Ultimately planning to die when his bomb goes off, his convictions prove his intent truly is to ensure Americans increase security precautions for flights.
  • Gideon the Ninth: Cytherea the First was the first Lyctor of the Emperor. Desiring revenge for all the deaths caused by the Emperor, Cytherea kills and replaces a candidate of the Seventh House named Dulcinea Septimus, taking her identity and entering a secret competition among the Nine Houses. Steadily eliminating others, she plots to use the death to draw the Emperor near so she can strike and kill him, only being undone by a sacrifice from Gideon Nav herself.
  • Vasquez Private Eye: Professor Martha Vazquez, seeks revenge after Firebird Airlines was acquitted for their role in a crash which killed her youngest son. Blackmailing her former student into making a drink mix which transforms people into the embodiment of their deepest desires, Martha uses it to disguise herself as lawyer Zachery Venshlin and proceeds to sabotage the court cases of the lawyers and judge from the Firebird case, while setting up evidence to implicate a wrongfully-fired Firebird employee to take the wrap for her. Even when caught and confronted for her crimes by her other son, Martha, adaptive to the end, sets up the scenario such that she will either get to kill him or he will have to murder her and live with the guilt.
  • GatoPaint's "The Puppet": The Puppet is a mysterious animatronic seeking vengeance on the nightguard. Seeing the results of the Purple Man's latest killing spree, the Puppet formulates his scheme by placing the souls of the deceased children into the animatronics and tasking them with killing the nightguard. Describing itself as "the guilty one" behind the haunting of Freddy Fazbear's Pizza, the Puppet is willing to take matters into its own hands should the animatronics fail their mission.
  • Noitu Love 2: Devolution: Dr. Tango is the true leader of the returning Grinning Darns. The Master Computer of Professor Darnacus Damnation, Tango sought to succeed where he failed and Take Over the World. Waiting until the after famed hero Noitu Love dies, Tango begins building Towers that can scan and restore past data, and recreates the year 2288, and causing chaos while disguising herself as a human and getting entrance into the Peacekeepers. Gaining the trust of Xoda Rap and Mr. Almond, Tango releases Rilo Doppelori and frames her for masterminding the Darn invasion. Eventually kidnapping Almond and distracting Xoda by getting her to rescue him, Tango launches an assault on the Peacekeepers' headquarters and claims the last Evomatic, becoming a powerful machine and engaging Xoda in a final, climactic battle.
  • Shadow Hearts: A former mage of the Vatican, Albert Simon desired to better the world, but the prejudice he suffered as a heretic for trying to reform the Church to serve the people turned him to dark magic. Still remaining peaceful, when his apprentice Rasputin got corrupted, Albert finally decided to destroy the world by summoning God and rebuilding it. Needing a light and dark source of magic for the ritual, Albert masterfully manipulated everyone to achieving his goal, while remaining a true gentleman. Leading to a final confrontation with Yuri and co. with an agreement that they'll leave the fate of the world to the victor, and despite losing, Albert took it gracefully, believing in Yuri to face the dark future, even assisting him by using the last of his power to send Yuri's team to fight God and help him master Amon as a Spirit Advisor. A truly worthy adversary, Albert Simon was a sorcerer to fear yet respect with his cunning and graceful manners.
  • TaleSpin: Shere Khan is the intimidating but charismatic head honcho of Khan Industries. A shrewd and capable business magnate whose company has greatly expanded and prospered under his administration, Khan has made himself one of the most powerful figures in the world, enough to make his own rules. Ruthless but pragmatic, he has a burning drive to make money and increase his power and authority, and will do so by fair means or foul. He and the main characters have frequently dealt with one another, sometimes as enemies, other times as allies. Morally ambiguous but not without honor, Shere Khan commands respect wherever he goes.
  • Solo: Tobias Beckett is a smuggler working for the Crimson Dawn Syndicate. Introduced disguised as an Imperial officer, Beckett and his teammates successfully desert a battle in spite of Han Solo's blackmail attempt, later taking the young man as a protégé after a train heist goes wrong. Assigned to deliver a stolen shipment of coaxium to Dryden Vos, Beckett secretly monitors his teammates and reports them to his boss when they decide to give the material to the Cloud Riders instead. When it turns out that Han anticipated this, Beckett betrays Vos as well in order to make off with the coaxium for himself. Whether working with him or against him, Beckett proves himself to be a worthy teacher toward the young Han Solo.
  • Darth Bane: Darth Bane himself began life as Dessel, the abused son of a miner, but grew to become much more. A hulking beast of a man with great power in the Dark Side of the Force and an intellect to match his might, Bane, upon shedding his old name and joining the Sith, quickly became one of the most powerful among them, making his own way in defiance of the established order. After realizing that the Brotherhood of Darkness is hopelessly flawed, Bane engineers its annihilation and devises the "Rule of Two", planning to turn the Sith's greatest weaknesses, their greed and ambition, into their greatest strengths. Spending the next two decades training his apprentice, Darth Zannah, and laying the groundwork for the Sith's domination of the galaxy, Bane endures every setback and challenge that comes his way with his iron will and near-infinite patience, holding firm to his self-imposed ideals, even managing to turn a parasitic infestation into an advantage. Ultimately meeting his end in a duel with his apprentice in accordance with the Rule of Two, Bane's legacy endures, setting a standard for the next thousand years of Sith Lords and setting the stage for the eventual fall of the Jedi and the Republic.

Lighty I need what you wanted to add to Leuvis and I'll probably run it around 9:00 tonight (10:20 where I live) to let whoever wants to add potholes or fire up last-minute entries know.

Edited by 43110 on Jun 7th 2020 at 9:16:56 AM

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#20643: Jun 7th 2020 at 7:57:32 AM

Evelyn is a woman who is perfectly mundane, never gives herself superpowers unlike Syndrome, acts with infinitely more dignity, and, with her back against the wall, manages to nearly kill a Super using only the environment and some quick thinking. Yeah, the pizza guy thing is a dick move, but it’s mainly an offhanded joke. That last comment doesn’t really strike me as petty. Ungrateful, maybe, but not petty, and even if it was petty, it’s up against an absolute ton of impressive deeds, seeing how far she’s punching out of her league and all. Easy, easy [tup] to Evelyn.

[tup] to the Red Death too while I’m at it.

And, by the way, I too prefer Evelyn. She’s like the Yoshikage Kira to Syndrome’s DIO.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Jun 7th 2020 at 7:58:59 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20644: Jun 7th 2020 at 8:07:00 AM

Well I'm open to having my mind changed, having not seen the movie. How does she conduct herself in the final confrontation... is she getting more and more unhinged prior to her final words to Helen or is she remaining refined as things come apart more and more? If it's the former, I'm more inclined to see her final words as petty, if the latter, as defiant.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#20645: Jun 7th 2020 at 8:08:13 AM

Eh. She does get more unhinged. The final words still didn't feel petty to me, but she definitely is kinda falling apart. That said, she's being pursued by people who could kill her with very little effort and still mostly keeps her cool, which is impressive enough to me. There's no screaming breakdown, no This Cannot Be!, she's clearly getting stressed and frustrated but it's hard to argue it's not reasonable for her to be stressed and frustrated in that situation.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Jun 7th 2020 at 8:11:26 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20646: Jun 7th 2020 at 8:12:29 AM

I may have to amend to an abstain here and adjust my opinion if I ever see the movie (which sounds worth a look, for the record). Her feats of intelligence are impressive, I won't debate that and she's leagues above the petty monster that is Syndrome for charm but I do have to pause at her starting to come apart at the moment when an MB really ought to be fighting through their own irritation and panic to start pulling out their ability to adapt. That being said, I'm solidly split on how to interpret her last line and I really don't know if I'd take it as petty or defiant if I were to watch it.

[up] Your edits to you comment are very fair points as well.

Edited by 43110 on Jun 7th 2020 at 11:13:17 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#20647: Jun 7th 2020 at 8:45:39 AM

I also agree with Evelyn not having super powers and not having to give herself powers like Syndrome is a big plus. An even bigger plus that I thought was incredibly awesome? Using the pizza boy she hypnotized to be Screenslaver instead of doing it herself was ingenious.

That said, nowhere near as entertaining a villain to watch as Syndrome though (who was delightfully hateful). Sorry Georgie.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 7th 2020 at 8:47:07 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20648: Jun 7th 2020 at 8:49:32 AM

I mean... the Syndrome comparison isn't really relevant. She's got a personality that's at least applicable for this trope, he does not. It's like how Riley brought up DIO vs. Kira or how I liked Davian more than Hendricks or Gihren more than Kycilia. It's a preference but not one that has any bearing here given how the former of all of those contrasts fail the prerequisite personality aspect of this trope. If someone doesn't think she counts that's fine but "Syndrome was more entertaining" isn't the mitigating factor.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#20649: Jun 7th 2020 at 9:04:04 AM

You know what? I am switching to abstain. I can see her going up. The points here have been solid. Her pettiness isn't much different from other approved keeps and greatly pales in comparison to Syndrome's. Her VB isn't at all over the top, and personally I found Toffee's much worse and he was still kept.

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#20650: Jun 7th 2020 at 9:04:16 AM

[tup] for Evelyn Deavor.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills

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