During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Sougetsu.
Well I guess Amy Dunne is an Amy Dud, which I'm actually okay with since I wasn't so sure on her either, but wanted to EP her to get a clear consensus. Still Im glad I did EP her, and that the general consensus on her is a clear no for being to scummy to be likable which I can understand.
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffAs Scraggle raised Lasombra to me earlier today, I’m inclined to take in his concerns that MB is just being slapped on a villain who’s just slightly above average intelligence, spits at Smug Snake and fits to the tune of “failed Complete Monster” much more straightly than the incidentally charming Grimmel. We’ve had bad writing result in this trope before but I’m not so sure that’s the case and honestly, I’m leaning more towards cut now. All the undertones seem to be against him.
Oh, if we really want to re-discuss Lasombra? I'm all for cutting, fwiw. He's a funny, entertaining villain, but he comes off more like a Smug Snake with a lot of competence VS a genuinely charming mastermind.
I mean, a pretty good indicator for the kind of character we're dealing with is that he taunts the heroes over the fact that he has WiFi, but he isn't giving them the password. When one of them replies You Monster!, Lasombra raises his eyebrows, remarks with genuine shock that she figured it out, then barks at one of his minions to change their WiFi password and "write it down so you don't lose it". Hilarious, but the mere fact that he's mocking school kids over "I have WiFi, but I'm not giving you my WiFi password, haha" is pretty damn petty
Edited by Ravok on Jun 3rd 2020 at 6:59:01 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!If we're talking about that, I do feel we have been to quick to put up 'charmless' candidates. People who aren't necessarily scrappies but aren't really compelling to the audience. A good comparison I feel would be you can have a candidate who's too heinous for this without being a Complete Monster. I feel you can have candidates who are too charmless for this without being a Scrappy.
Edit: For the record I'm abstaining on Lasombra.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jun 3rd 2020 at 10:12:19 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midI know. That's probably the most subjective criteria we have, it's just I do know we've approved people who we can't really say why they're charming at all, we just know they're good planners and don't break down.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midWhat's J's saying refers to audience reaction for charm, given he's referencing The Scrappy and I do concur with him there's a threshold that goes beyond just that trope. Base-Breaking Character? No problem but we should be striving to get people who at least have a fan base. I can't think of an example we've got listed lacking in requisite charm but it's something to look out for as we vet examples that come through. Does anyone else want Lasombra kept? Imperial is the only one holding out for him to stay right now... just wanna get the tallies through so I know what I'm doing with him.

Yeah, honestly, I don't even have to take the False Rape Accusation into account to say 'No' to Amy. I like the movie, but Amy comes off as a smug, arrogant slimeball who ruins her boyfriend's life for cheating on her (and I know a character needs "villainy" to count for the trope, but this is insanely petty), and her entire Establishing Character Moment is her shitting on other types of women and basically coming off as a massively unlikable, shallow bitch who thinks she's "better" than other women because of weird, superficial reasoning.
Here's a real easy and fun as hell candidate for us all.
What's the work?
Anti Magic Academy The35th Test Platoon is a Light Novel series by Tōki Yanagimi. Following the usual "harem set in fascinating fantasy world" trend that many Light Novels take, our story follows Takeru Kusanagi, a young teenager who trains and schools in the Anti-Magic Academy, a school commissioned by the organization known as "the Inquisition," designed to train powerful youth in the ways of combatting evil witches, wizards, and other dark magic users.
Looooooooot of lore and "inner-workings" in this one so I'll do my best to keep things simple and explain what needs explaining without dragging on for too long, so just bear with me!
Who is Sougetsu Ootori? What makes him a candidate?
Sougetsu Ootori is the Principal of the Anti-Magic Academy and the founding Chairman of the Inquisition itself. A goofy, flamboyant and carefree man who jokes and teases his way through the story while rocking a snazzy white suit, Sougetsu is revealed as early as the first book in the series to be possessed of a ruthless and strategic mind, one responsible for a massive chunk of the story, as he's revealed to be the Big Bad of the story.
Once upon a time, ancient worlds existed that harbored gods and humans alike, and the two species warred for years. In an attempt to defeat the gods, humanity created its own artificial god, a half-human, half-god entity some knew as "Loki," but who took the name Sougetsu Ootori. Sougetsu began exterminating the gods one by one with his immense power, but unfortunately, due to what might be called...design flaws, Sougetsu has a naturally instilled love for destruction, and begins turning on the humans themselves for their usage of god powers. Ultimately, in a final attempt to save what could be managed, the gods and humans destroyed their worlds but created an entirely new one filled with humans and magic.
Sougetsu, one of the only mythical beings to survive the "transfer," had a massive chunk of his powers ripped from him and dispersed throughout the world, formulating many godly weapons and powers bestowed upon random people across the planet. Though left heavily depowered, Sougetsu found himself both disgusted at the new "abominable" mixture of humanity and god magic that his enemies created in their final moments, yet also intensely pleased that he will be able to continue his innermost instinct and desire to destroy all things related to gods.
Quickly strategizing, Sougetsu moves through humanity over the centuries, subtly manipulating events to his desires and all while forming "the Inquisition," a massive organization that he uses to take down magical threats to humanity until the day that he himself can satisfy his innate goal of destruction. When a partner of his began learning of Sougetsu's true nature and goals, Sougetsu released a witch that said partner had captured and gave her the man's location, leading to his death, after which Sougetsu took his former partner's orphaned daughter Ouka to raise as his own.
Casting his gaze upon Takeru Kusanagi, Sougetsu sees massive potential and power in the boy, evidenced further by Takeru's little sister, Kiseki, having an uncontrollable, world-threatening variety of Eldritch Abomination-type demons laying dormant inside her. Sougetsu, promising to try to cure Kiseki in exchange for Takeru's assistance, brings Takeru into the Anti-Magic Academy, giving him control of the ragtag, scraggly "35th Platoon," which Sougetsu demotes Ouka into joining as well when her bloodthirsty hatred for witches leads to her disobeying orders on a mission.
Needing to pair Takeru with a Relic Eater (a godly weapon that has a soul and personality of its own) to power him up even more, Sougetsu—upon hearing that a magical threat is tearing up a nearby city—withholds his own Inquisition forces and manipulates Takeru and the 35th Platoon into taking on the threat themselves, forcing Takeru to bond with the Relic Eater called Lapis Lazuli to save himself and his friends.
When Sougetsu learns of a nearby massacre of innocents and the capture of an amnesiac witch called Mari, Sougetsu quickly frames Mari for the crime to imprison her just so he can then manipulate her memory-loss into getting her to join the Inquisition. He then puts Takeru and the 35th Platoon in charge of overseeing Mari, and later shows up with literal popcorn as the true culprit of the massacre, Haunted, attacks the Academy to retrieve Mari, all according to Sougetsu's plans, of course, as he seeks to capture Haunted, though the psycho escapes.
Sougetsu, due to the usage of powerful suits of magic armor called "dragoons" by Haunted, accuses Suzaku Suginami, leader of the rival organizations of "Alchemists," of supplying Haunted with the dragoons due to tracing the source back to one of the Alchemist laboratories. Though Suzaku pins all the blame on the rogue laboratory, Sougetsu nonetheless gets hundreds of dragoons "donated" to the Academy by Suzaku to prove her good faith, then prepares a takeover of the rogue laboratory to take its resources into the Inquisition.
Personally leading the charge of the laboratory against hundreds of dragoons, Sougetsu shrugs off his loyalists' concern for his safety, instead using his powerful Relic Eater called "Innocentius" to force the dragoons to begin slaughtering each other, and Sougetsu successfully takes control of the lab.
When the braggart student Kyouya is horribly injured and crippled in the battle, Sougetsu personally visits him in the hospital with flowers, first offering condolences and urging him to not be consumed by hatred for those who harmed him, then, when Kyouya is obviously consumed with bitterness and anger, Sougetsu instead offers him a immense magic power-up in exchange for serving Sougetsu personally.
Sougetsu later, after having many experiments run on Kiseki and uncovering how mentally unstable the woman is, realizes the earth-shattering power she possesses, and orchestrates her escape from the lab. Even when his forces recapture her, Sougetsu puts Kyouya in charge of her prison transport, fully knowing how unstable his powers and current mental state are after the power up, allowing Kiseki to once again escape, this time going on a brutal rampage with her demonic powers to kill many people in a city.
Revealed to have orchestrated it all just to see for himself how powerful the girl's abilities are, Sougetsu hopes to recapture her and have her experimented on even more by the Alchemists and further learn of her powers, and though at first heis warded off by Takeru's powerful mentor, Orochi Kusanagi, Sougetsu quickly just threatens Takeru's life to get Orochi to hand Kiseki over.
Having more experiments done on Kiseki, further twisting her mind, Sougetsu is asked by his enemies Mother Goose and Orochi to meet alone for "peace talks." Though at first amicably chatting with the duo, when Sougetsu is informed by them that they plan to attempt to kill him, Sougetsu casually reveals he brought along dozens of powerful dragoons he's been developing by using witches and wizards as raw material.
Though confronted by the powerful Haunted, who seeks to end Sougetsu and protect the world from his plans (because Haunted enjoys killing people too much for the world to be annihilated), Sougetsu whimsically parries all of his blows and escapes.
Later arranging for Kiseki's freedom from Alchemist possession, Sougetsu manipulates the girl to her side, pushing her to annihilated all of humanity so that only herself and her beloved brother Takeru can have the planet to themselves....of course, Sougetsu's ultimate goal? He's been preparing and pushing Takeru throughout the story through all of his challenges to amp the boy's power up, as Takeru and Lapis' power together is the only thing in the world that will be able to kill a god. Sougetsu plans to force Takeru to kill Kiseki to prevent her from killing all humans, which will make Takeru enraged enough to strike Sougetsu dead.
Due to Sougetsu's nature as a god, whose power was ripped from him and contributed greatly to the creation of the current world? His death will bring about the end of the entire current world, leaving absolute nothingness in his wake, fulfilling Sougetsu's cherished goal of utter destruction of all things related to gods, including himself since he's half-god.
Cheerfully playing minigolf to himself as his plans fall into place—even humorously stomping on the ground to redirect his latest putt to successfully land to which he lets out a triumphant "Yes!"—Sougetsu later confronts one of the only survivors of his former world, the young girl named Nagaru, and after a long, heart-to-heart chat with her about their godly origins, Sougetsu even remarks how lonely he's been over the centuries, with no one else knowing his true form and past. Even when Nagaru seemingly sacrifices herself in an attempt on Sougetsu's life, Sougetsu calmly evades the destruction, yet showcases great respect to Nagaru and remarks that he's sad he'll go back to being alone in his status as the only survivor of the former worlds.
Though Kiseki and Takeru duel, Takeru manages to appeal to his sister's goodwill and convince her to stand down. Sougetsu responds by shooting Kiseki in the back with Innocentius and using it to force her against her will to continue threatening the world again, after which Sougetsu thrashes Takeru's partners to prevent them from interfering.
Unfortunately for Sougetsu...when Nagaru was distracting him with her attempted sacrifice, temporarily throwing off Sougetsu's godly ability to scry any magic user in the world at will, Mother Goose and Orochi worked together to sacrifice their own lives to Takeru and Lapis, granting them the ability to absorb the power of a god.
Sougetsu deduces this from sheer intuitive realization due to Takeru's choice of wording and attitude when dealing with him, and Sougetsu quickly decides to change his plan to instead kill Takeru and start his plans all over again, refusing to change Takeru killing and.absorbing him to save the world, and also remarking that it'll allow himself a lot more fun as he spends centuries planning for the Earth's destruction anew.
Offering to kill Takeru quickly and even spare his friends if he surrenders, noting that by the time he enacts his next plan, everything Takeru currently knows and loves will be long dead and gone, Sougetsu is instead caught off guard by a surviving-Nagaru, who uses her godly powers to transport Sougetsu to a realm where his powers are dampened, enabling a mostly fair fight between him and Takeru.
Though Sougetsu puts up a damn good fight, Takeru overwhelms and begins beating him. Sougetsu, in a last ditch effort, attempts to let Takeru strike him down, but deal a killing blow to Takeru in the same stroke, killing them both and ensuring the planet's destruction, but Takeru lops Sougetsu's arm off, stand him in the head and begins draining his godly powers.
In his final moments, Sougetsu just chuckles, remarks that even though he failed, he had fun along the way, and states that he feels no regret or disappointment in this outcome, and goes out with a smile.
Is Sougetsu magnificent?
Oh fantastically so. Sougetsu starts the story out as the silly-yet-mysterious Principal and Big Good, only to be revealed to have been playing most everyone to his tune and is actually the Big Bad. He inspires his troops and the students in the same breath that he casually gets them killed, yet he also seems to have an almost genuine respect and appreciation for some people, and Sougetsu never, ever loses his affable, friendly attitude even while dying.
Though possessed of the omniscient ability to see any magic user at any given time, Sougetsu's manipulations and scheming are given far more gravitas and skill to them than "he's spying on a few of the heroes and learning their plans," his strategies extend far beyond such things.
Lastly, although Sougetsu does get outsmarted by Nagaru (who herself is someone so intelligent that Sougetsu respects her enough to actually say is his equal in brilliance), which allows Takeru to not only gain his "absorb godly powers" abilities but also for Nagaru to surprise attack Sougetsu and trap him in a realm where his powers are dampened, I'm extremely quick to forgive this not only because Nagaru is extremely smart and cunning, but Sougetsu admits immediately and gracefully that he was outwitted, and just grows in respect for his enemies before trying a new tactic. I can't take any magnificence from Sougetsu for getting outsmarted once or twice when he is so quick to note these "miscalculations" and realizing the impact they've had on his plans without a beat.
Is Sougetsu a bastard? Too much?
Sougetsu is horrible in terms of deeds. He puts Kiseki through nasty experiments, he uses her powers to basically turn some of his own men into suicide bombers against their will just to lead the heroes into a trap, he's scheming for the ultimate destruction of all existence, and he even butchers dozens of witches and uses their cranial nervous systems to power his experimental dragoon army.
Even still....Sougetsu is literally designed to hate all things related to gods and seek destruction for the sheer enjoyment of it, yet he's surprisingly tame in cruelty or sadism, especially in a work that has fucking Haunted for a secondary villain. Sougetsu is definitely heinous as all hell, but he's never a sadist (even referring to some of his crimes as tasteless) and he's so damn friendly all the time that his crimes come second to how brilliant he is. The guy is literally seeking to get himself killed because he's half-god, and his inherited hate for all things related to gods has him harboring a sort of self-loathing for his state. Sougetsu even muses at one point if he can spare the world, only to then shake the idea off, noting that someone designed to destroy must destroy, and there's no other way for him.
Final Verdict?
Sougetsu's heinous, he's supremely wicked, and he's goofy and chummy as all hell, but he's also a brilliant, strategical mind disguised in a badass white suit. Keeper.
Edited by Ravok on Jun 3rd 2020 at 5:18:50 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!