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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20326: Jun 3rd 2020 at 12:19:03 PM

Sounds mostly like generic villainy from what I'm reading, so I'm leaning yeah there, doesn't sound too bad despite lacking any redeeming features.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#20327: Jun 3rd 2020 at 12:20:34 PM

[tup]tango

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#20328: Jun 3rd 2020 at 12:21:19 PM

Happy birthday N. Tango sounds like a yes.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#20329: Jun 3rd 2020 at 1:17:57 PM

[tup] Tango. That games sounds really goofy(in a good way).

Edit: Happy birthday!

Edited by jjjj2 on Jun 3rd 2020 at 4:29:48 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#20330: Jun 3rd 2020 at 1:46:28 PM

[up] Yeah, Tango is played seriously as a threat, but the game doesn’t take itself too seriously. It knows it’s a fun romp and embraces it, and that is what makes it fun.

Edited by MasterN on Jun 3rd 2020 at 1:46:43 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20332: Jun 3rd 2020 at 2:21:02 PM

Also you said she lacks sympathetic qualities but there's this:

  • And I Must Scream: Rilo states in the sequel that Tango was left by herself for hundreds of years after the Grinning Darns were defeated by Noitu. No wonder she's gone mad.

Sounds like there's at least a touch of sympathy devoted to her if they go out of their way to point it out.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#20333: Jun 3rd 2020 at 2:23:52 PM

Not sure thats the correct trope. Maybe Driven to Madness ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20334: Jun 3rd 2020 at 2:25:21 PM

It's not something I'm bothering to correct, just that the game seems to take note of the event that drove her to villainy, even if just implicitly.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#20336: Jun 3rd 2020 at 3:34:36 PM

Ah. I see. It's not exactly given any focus, so this might just be Fridge Horror, but it does give her a slight bit of sympathy.

Well, anyway:

  • Noitu Love 2: Devolution: Dr. Tango is the true leader of the returning Grinning Darns. The Master Computer of Professor Darnacus Damnation, Tango sought to succeed where he failed and Take Over the World. Waiting until the famed hero Noitu Love dies, Tango begins building Towers that can scan and restore past data to cause chaos while disguising herself as a human and getting entrance into the Peacekeepers. Gaining the trust of Xoda Rap and Mr. Almond, Tango releases Rilo Doppelori and frames her for masterminding the Darn invasion. Eventually kidnapping Almond and distracting Xoda by getting her to rescue him, Tango launches an assault on the Peacekeepers HQ and claims the last Evomatic, becoming a powerful machine and putting up a last fight against Xoda.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#20337: Jun 3rd 2020 at 4:18:48 PM

Happy birthday to you, N, and yes to Tango and Simon!

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#20338: Jun 3rd 2020 at 4:55:28 PM

Alright so there is this one character that I have been thinking about here a few times, but never really got a proper EP. Some have said she qualifies while others says that she doesn’t. I myself am in the middle of all this but. I think she’s at least worth an EP to see what everyone else thinks. First lets talk about the movie she was in Gone Girl

What’s The Work?

Gone Girl is 2014 psychological thriller film based on the book of the same name. The premise revolves around Amy Elliot Dunne as she goes missing while her husband Nick is accused of murdering her. Of course this all turns out to be a ruse all caused Amy, whose happens to be my candidate to discuss.

Who Is She? What Has She Done?

Amy Elliot-Dunne is the wife of Nick Dunne who she met at a party where the two soon get married. However their relationship deteriorated over time, which resulted in Nick cheating on Amy with Addie, one of Nick’s students. Amy would learn of Nick’s affair which resulted in Amy formulating a complex revenge plan to get back at Nick.

Amy would frame Nick for her murder and by fabricated countless false evidence against Nick such as a dairy containing false accusations of Nick being a violently abusive spouse to Amy, purchasing stuff Nick would buy before hoarding them at Nick’s storage, befriends a pregnant neighbor, telling her fake stories about Nick's temper, before stealing her urine to fake pregnancy results, and splatters her own blood across the kitchen, and cleaned it haphazardly.

She would deliberately connect all these incidents for police to find all the false evidence against Nick tricking them into thinking Nick killed her where Nick would be convicted for her murder while she fakes her own death and goes to the Ozarks to start her new life Under the new alias “Nancy”.

However she would get robbed by her neighbors which leads to her to seek help from her ex-boyfriend Desi Collings, by exploiting his obsession with her and tells her that Nick was abusive. This leads to Desi to take her in his home where the two watch the news where they see Nick professing his innocence and love for Amy while apologizing for his failures as a husband.

Seeing Nick’s performance causes Amy to rekindle her feelings for Nick causes her to change her plans, using Desi's surveillance cameras to help make it appear that Desi kidnapped and raped her, before She seduces Desi into having sex with her, where she murders him with a box cutter, and returns home covered in his blood, successfully framing Desi for Kidnapping and raping her while clearing Nick of suspicion in the process.

Amy manages to get everyone to support her story including the FBI, with Nick and his allies not having enough evidence to prove her guilt forcing them to stop going after Amy. Nick tries to leave Amy, but Amy forces him to stay with her by revealing to Nick that she’s pregnant with Nick’s child, having inseminated herself with Nick's sperm stored at a fertility clinic. This cause Nick to stay with Amy to protect their unborn child from her while Amy manages to get everything she wanted in the end while getting away with her crimes scot-free.

Is She Intelligent? Is She Charismatic?

Being the Big Bad of the book and the movie, Amy has proven herself to be and absolutely brilliant and a charismatic actress having orchestrated the entire conflict and manipulating almost everyone to turn against Nick and support her, including the freaking FBI and hardly ever looses her cool. In fact the only time she ever comes close to loosing is when she getting robbed, but even then she quickly regains it and simply readjusts her plans and can always back up her confidence

Speaking of such, Amy is also a master of Xanatos Speed Chess, having faced sudden obstacles such getting robbed and regaining her feelings for Nick, and needing to adjust her plan with she does so with relative ease, such as manipulating her ex-boyfriend into taking her into his home, and later killing Desi and framing him for kidnapping and raping her.

As for how well she’s liked to the audience, I aware that there are some people who might be wary of her but at the same time Amy has a lot of fans who love her for her manipulations and charisma as she is given entries for Draco in Leather Pants and Rooting for the Empire which making her a very popular villain. Though MB is also YMMV so it depends on the person's opinion about her

What’s The Competition Like?

She’s the most brilliant, charming, and devious character having outsmarted everyone in movie and book, with knowing coming close to her level of intelligence and charm, especially not Dessi who portrayed as a controlling and obsessive creep and in the ends she gets away with everything and get everything she wants

Is She a Bitch? Is She Too Much of a Bitch

Okay, so she fakes her death, frames her husband for her “murder”, actually murders a person she manipulated herself before framing him for kidnapping her, and forces Nick to stay with her, so yeah I’d say she’s a bitch.

That said, I don’t think she is too much of a bitch to be disqualified. She does have a backstory of that keeps her sympathetic to the audience, being pressured by her parents, never does anything too awful to be disqualified (she never rapes anyone), never commits any disgusting crimes, and in her own twisted way has genuine feelings for Nick.

Final Verdict?

I will leave that decision for you guys to make.

Edited by G-Editor on Jun 3rd 2020 at 1:59:16 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#20339: Jun 3rd 2020 at 4:59:21 PM

Doesn't Amy frame someone for raping her which is pretty over the line. I might be mis rembering but I am going to abstain.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20340: Jun 3rd 2020 at 5:00:20 PM

No, I've seen the movie, the whole cast is full of unlikable assholes, Amy just happens to be the most successful manipulator. Didn't we discount her in the early days of the thread?

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#20341: Jun 3rd 2020 at 5:00:57 PM

We talked about Amy before. In addition to being, to me, unlikable, she indeed does a False Rape Accusation. Hard no.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#20343: Jun 3rd 2020 at 5:01:51 PM

[up][up] I thought so. Yeah that's to far for this trope. So hard no to Amy.

Edited by Bullman on Jun 3rd 2020 at 7:02:45 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#20344: Jun 3rd 2020 at 5:02:10 PM

I'm not seeing any sort of refutation to the points against her raised before.

I'd disagree with her not committing any disgusting crimes when she's ruining a guys life for cheating on her.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#20345: Jun 3rd 2020 at 5:03:17 PM

A no for Amy.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20346: Jun 3rd 2020 at 5:04:21 PM

Honestly... she's written to be so scummy I'm not even sure the False Rape Accusation needs to be singled out, the character oozes slime and the only thing she's got going for her is that she's probably smarter than everyone else.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#20348: Jun 3rd 2020 at 5:11:24 PM

[tdown]Amy.

She's really unlikable jerk. Though I did like Rosamund Pike 's performance. Kudos she really sells you on the despicableness.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20349: Jun 3rd 2020 at 5:14:31 PM

Something to note even if she didn't indulge in any crimes which technically cross the line, her whole character isn't built for this. I think I've brought up that had Parasite written it's characters differently the Kim siblings would have a crack at this but as it is we just see the waters muddy as the Park family uses them for labour to leach off their work; just like the Kim family cons their way into getting jobs from them so they can in turn leach off the the Parks. They care for their family but the work goes out of its way to show what a selfish mess the whole situation becomes and that's not even getting into Ki-woo making moves on a teenage girl he knew his best friend was waiting to confess his feelings to once she was of age. There are certain characters who aren't technically crossing any lines but you've gotta assess the tempo the work sets them to.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#20350: Jun 3rd 2020 at 5:14:39 PM

From her charachter sheet alone....she is a Control Freak who tries to force people to act as she believes best for them and is Disproportionate Retribution personified who does horrible things over petty slights.

Plus it seems from her sheet that even her "victory" is emphasized to be pointless as she's gonna be miserable her whole life, to the point Nick pities her.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jun 3rd 2020 at 2:16:46 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here

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