During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Bowen's writeup looks good.
Beauty, in the drafts now for y'all to have at it.
Caesar
Love Rise of the Guardians, but I'd absolutely be against Pitch, unfortunately. Great, great villain, but he shows signs of cracks in his armor throughout the movie, and it all culminates in a notable Villainous Breakdown when he's beaten, involving petulantly trying to reassert his dominance, screaming a Big "NO!", cowardly fleeing from the heroes and then getting dragged off kicking and screaming by his own minions when they realize he's become weak and terrified.
Absolutely love the character, but I think his emotionally rageful behavior—though accentuating him as a character—also takes a fair bit of magnificence from him by the time he's beaten and reduced to complete childish cowardice.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Removed this pothole from KickTheDog.Live Action Films:
- Strangers on a Train:
- In this Alfred Hitchcock film, Magnificent Bastard Bruno Anthony uses his cigarette to casually puncture a little boy's balloon. Just for the pleasure of being a total dick.
I know nothing about this film, but that kind of petty dickishness doesn't strike me as magnificent.
Wild Child
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
This. Was having trouble articulating why I didn't think Pitch counts, but Ravok pretty much took the words out of my mouth. Great villain, but don't think he really hits the mark.
If Bruno is one, that's a terrible way to sell it.
I kind of want to say something. Hopefully this won't be too late to be annoying.
I doubt this will make a difference, since it wasn't really the dealbreaker disqualifying Hades, but I feel like I didn't do a proper job defending the apparent breakdowns he had. So here it is.
Yes, he yelled and lashed out in scorched feathers, but I don't think it was in anger. Look at the bottom screen. He isn't even angry. And yes, he does have a face he uses when he's angry. adding
onto the face that literals a few seconds later and he's already telling Dark Pit and Palutena to get a room, and the whole thing seems like he's only doing it to taunt them.
As for when he yells at Medusa... alright I admit I think he genuinely got mad and lashed out there. But... to give Hades credit, Medusa literally stopped him when he was seconds away from victory, and more importantly in my opinion, she punched his fucking head off! I think you're allowed to get a bit angry when you take a blow like that.
Alright, I'm done. I'll see you guys later if I find someone else.
Edited by crankers on Jun 2nd 2020 at 7:52:45 AM
The wifi here sucks
Question, with comic characters who have been in stories written by different people, how exactly do we handle Depending on the Writer?
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
I hear you Crankers and for the record I think you did a very good first EP but to me the fundamental issue with Hades isn't how he conducts himself—it's how evil he is. He wants a war so countless will die because he likes eating souls since they taste good. He doesn't need them to survive, he's just completely apathetic to the violence he causes because he finds them delicious. He's funny and he's from a kid's game, so it's not immediately obvious but looking back at the counterarguments against him on CM I find it difficult to not see him as a monstrous psychopath who just covers it up with a laugh and a grin. Someone brought Ives up to me and likewise: I see a Laughably Evil maniac... do I love the guy? Yes but it's more of a "This fucking maniac is hilariously awesome in how he goes about his depravity" not a "For all his faults I can't help but admire but admire how charming and brilliant he is." The issue CMs—or candidates who commit very heinous deeds at all for that matter—run into on this thread is they still have to be Magnificent first, a Bastard second and the more evil you are, the harder that becomes. For what it's worth I think you demonstrated you have a very good grasp on a lot of the underlying factors in your effort post and I do very much look forward to your next one.
If there's one writer's take on them which would otherwise disqualify (see misogynist Dr. Doom or rape-ordering Kingpin) that isn't a spin others take on them, it's not disqualifying. If the work wherein they do something that's disqualifying isn't part of their mainstream version (to use Kingpin again, like his MAX incarnation) then they just don't count in that specific work.
Edited by 43110 on Jun 2nd 2020 at 11:06:24 AM
For Depending on the Writer, we look at a general sense of how the character is. If the character is to inconsistent then I guess they might not count.
For Hades I thought he did a good job explaining why the soul thing is not as gross in the context of the game as it would be in another fictional universe. But that was my specific opinion.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The wifi here sucks
OK, let me bring up the specific thing I'm taking about. I'm reading through the different appearances of Kraven the Hunter and I found a book called Kraven's First Hunt. The book is a retelling of his first appearance by the same guy who wrote Kraven's Last Hunt, J.M. DeMatteis. In First Hunt Kraven tries forcing himself onto a woman, and is also much more of a dick than he was in Last Hunt, tormenting Chameleon for no real reason other than to be a dick. Kraven being that much of an asshole is very much out of character with his other appearances but the rape thing I can't say that same for since he straight up hasn't interacted with that many women in the comics I've read so far, and those interactions were almost entirely as enemies in combat. What do you guys think of this, I'm worried since Last Hunt is one of his biggest selling points as an MB.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
If the rape attempt is treated as canon to the universe in which the character you're looking at exists I'd say no. If they're separated, whether by one setting not acknowledging the other or an explicit split, it's fine.
About Hades... the game makes it full on clear he wants omnicide because he thinks it will be delicious and has an extended conversation with Pit showcasing how little he cares about the devastation his literal appetite will cause, even laughing about it smugly. He was contentious on CM because of how many funny moments he gets but I think he's awful and I cannot say yes to him on this end.
The wifi here sucks
I have no idea if it's canon or not, it's an annual for a series that I believe is canon to the rest of the Marvel universe. Again it's a retelling and a fairly accurate one at that (aside from a few small changes) but it doesn't have any kind of framing device to fit it in with the series it's an annual of. The attempted rape is a small part of the book which I doubt will ever be referenced by any future stories.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Yeah I'm willing to give some leeway there. It's never referenced afterwards, and the Kingpin rape ordering is 'canon' but also never referenced afterward, same with Bane attempting to rape Talia. It's not a consistent part of his characterization.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jun 2nd 2020 at 12:04:44 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Go for it.
The wifi here sucks
OK I'm not done reading through his appearances yet (I brought this up to see if I should continue to read or not) but hopefully I'll have an EP sometime this month. Thanks for the help.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
@43110 I'm aware. Like I said. I knew it wasn't the dealbreaker.
Wild Child
On YMMV.Henry IV.
- Magnificent Bastard: Prince John proves himself to be one when he manages to convince a rebel army to disband by telling it's leaders that they will have all of their grievances brought before the King and addressed... and when they actually believe him, immediately having them all arrested. He ends the war that has lasted both parts of the play without firing a single arrow.
- As mentioned, Hal can be seen as this depending on whether or not you buy his claim that he is simply playing the fool but really is just biding his time to wait for the right moment to get serious. Depending on the production, the actor could go further and play him as a full-on moustache twirling villain if they so desired, particularly in the scene where he takes the crown from his father mistakenly thinking the King is dead — such a choice would also make his decision to break with Falstaff less about Character Development and more a pre-planned, calculated, non-lethal version of You Have Outlived Your Usefulness.
The MILF Virus
So I decided to take a crack on this trope since I do got a few candidates among my repitoire of works. I think this candidate should have been put in this trope for a while.
What is the work?
Shadow Hearts is a gothic theme JRPG from 2001 that's about the adventures of Yuri and his companion as he protects a mysterious girl named Alice and face off against numerous eldritch horror with their own ambitions. Behind all of them is our candidate today, the mysterious Roger Bacon... or by his real name Cardinal Albert Simon.
Who is Albert Simon and what does he do?
A gentleman from beginning to end, Albert under the guise of Roger Bacon is the mysterious sorceror you encounter since the beginning of the game. A former key member of the Vatican, Albert during his experience grew pretty cynical with humanity, seeing the horrible actions the Vatican has and soon learning the God they worship isn't actually the benevolent lord he though, in actuality it's much closer to an alien. He became a heretic of the church when he tried to change things for civil rights, but his failure to change anything cause him to fall into black magic. Despite this, Albert hasn't descended into committing evil yet, it's until his apprentice Rasputin went mad with power from his teachings, which lead to Albert deciding to try destroying and remade the world in a misguided attempt to save it.
His plan is to summon the eldritch god the Vatican admired, and to do so he would use a beacon to summon him which requires a powerful source of light and darkness. While planning this, he also went and tested 3 powerful tomes he stole from the Vatican and gave it to desperate people to observe the results, which end up being the catalyst of the plot of Koudelka where Patrick in hid desperation tried to resurrect his deceased wife.
Now with the events of Shadow Hearts, after learning that Alice Elliot holds the Seraphin Radiance to fulfill the source of light requirement, Albert, pretending to be Roger Bacon went to his former associate Dehuia to assist him in capturing her while tricking Dehuia into thinking he was controlling him. While his initial attempt failed due to the intervention of Yuri, ultimately the plan became successful thanks to Dehuia sorcery. Unfortunately for Dehuia, Albert gave him a spell that he wasn't capable of using, which ultimately cause Dehuia's demise after being defeated by Yuri and Zhuzhen. After the battle, Albert appears and finishes the ritual Dehuia and summoned the Seraphic Radiance. While unable to seize it due to Yuri trying to absorb it, Albert was ultimately satisfied with the conclusion and retreats, although he almost lost his hat from the explosive aftermath.
Laying low, Albert worked with a new partner, the sorceress Arcane Olga and tasked her to keep an eye on Alice. Planning to use Koudelka as his new back-up due to losing access to the Seraphic Radiance, Albert ultimately schemes to manipulate everyone into summoning God. He ultimately succeeds, using a number of villains as pawns to help manipulate the heroes into the beacon to summon a God, getting Koudelka to assist him by using her son as a hostage and even engaging the group in a fight that ultimately provided the power for the beacon to activate and Albert's plan become successful. Despite this, during his run Albert still retained his gentleman manner, tried to be formal with the party to the point he ask them to stop interferring, and even let's Alice go when she found out his secret identity, out of respect for her father and even begin to genuinely respect the heroes. Even his mentor, the real Roger Bacon admits Albert was actually a genuinely good friend and does have the right intentions, but his methods is the issues.
Having now summoned God, the party confronts him one last time at the end of the final dungeon where Albert laments he wouldn't be able to show Yuri and the others the new world he was about to create. Out of begrudging respect, Yuri asked Albert for a deal, that they'll have one last battles and leave the fate of the world to the victor with no hard feelings, which Albert agrees to. Using his final form, Albert is ultimately defeated and his final moments praises the party for their will and determination, saying that had the world also had that, they would be able to overcome the upcoming dark future. Out of courtesy, he uses the last of his power to teleport the heroes to fight God.
In the sequel Covenant where you fight his apprentice Rasputin, Albert becomes a sort of Spiritual Adviser for Yuri, helping him gain the power of Amon and encouraging him claiming that having the power to defeat him, he should be able to save the world once again.
Is Albert Magnificent?
Absolutely! Albert's memo is to be manipulative, cunning, deceitful, yet still managing to be a trusted ally. He was able to fool every single villain from Shadow Hearts, from the intelligent Big Bad Wannabe Dehuia, to Roger Bacon, and even protagonist Yuri and Koudelka to fulfill his goal. He's also extremely adaptive, able to make a back-up plan when he lost the Seraphic Radiance by luring the cast into the beacon, and using Hailey after learning he's Koudelka's son. And the best part? Albert Simon manage to accomplish his goal of summoning God. Sure he wasn't able to recreate the world, but his motive was to create a future beyond the bleak threat Rasputin held which still worked out for him since his actions manage to strengthen Yuri and be enough to defeat Rasputin, so he got everything he wanted. He's so good that Yuri, his enemy had respect for him to the point chastise Rasputin after defeating by claiming Albert was more powerful then him.
Bastard? Too much?
Sure Albert is a massive manipulator, and has no qualms with killing to get his goal, but goals are always well-intentional. Considering the setting is before WW 2, Albert believes that killing is fine since at least what he does will bring forth a bright future, and the idea of murder during that time wasn't unusual. That said he also standards, since he finds most of his pawns despicable for having incredibly selfish goals like the resurrection of the Templars or genocide to the Japanese, he also arranges most of them to be killed. The only exception is Arcane Olga who he did quietly lamented when she end up killed trying to stop Yuri.
He's also a real gentleman. Whenever he shows up, he's very courteous and treats the party with respect. Even in his final defeat he congratulates the party and gives words of encouragement while assisting them by taking them to face God. And after the games, he does help Yuri out master Amon to stop Sapientes Glados.
Final Verdict:
This guy was the first one I thought when thinking Magneficient Bastard. He's like Prof. Layton as a JRPG villain. Conniving, ambitious, but a true gentleman with only the best intentions at heart.
Also my first proposal.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Goku Black
Welcome Newton.
Also ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Simon.
to Simon
Showtime!
to Simon
Having recently watched the Hey Arnold Jungle movie. I have a few concerns with La Sombra. I really don't want to cannibalize anyone's candidate but there are a few glaring issues with him.
- The way he tricks the kids into believing he is Eduardo using a Paper-Thin Disguise of putting on a fake mustache that he gleefully gloats about makes him come off as incredibly smug and childish
- While Bad Boss in of itself probably isn't a disqualifier. The way he callously sacrifices his own men to bobby traps to save his own skin is played as him being a cowardly Jerkass, even directly using one as a human shield
- He is biten in the ass by his own Awesome Ego and greed when he tried to steal the gold from the Corazon which proves to be a fatal mistake when it responds by shooting a poisonous dart at him
- After climbing to safety after falling off a cliff he has a Villainous Breakdown attempting to kill Eduardo and the kids out of petty spite. He ends up knocking the Coazon off the cliff yelling "NO, IT'S MINE", and then attempting to kill Arnold before going on a petty rant even though he was the one who knocked it over in the first place
Ultimately he just seems like a petty, egotistical Card-Carrying Villain who happens to have a brain on him.
Yes to Simon and welcome Newton, great EP!
I haven’t seen The Jungle Movie but as I recall it was deemed Lasombra’s intended Smug Snake personality didn’t quite translate strongly enough to screen to mitigate him. I’ll have to defer to Austin and whoever else has seen it for a more detailed response though.
Haven't seen it but I'll hear an EP... not particularly familiar with the film.