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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#20251: Jun 1st 2020 at 6:57:19 PM

I cut this pothole from The Hero Dies.

  • In Code Geass, Byronic Hero Lelouch is killed at the end of the series, dying in the arms of his sobbing sister Nunnally. Magnificent Bastard that he is, Lulu planned the entire thing to atone for the horrible things he'd done trying to build a better world and to give Nunnally, Kallen, and the rest of humanity a chance for a better future.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20252: Jun 1st 2020 at 7:00:10 PM

Remember when this cleanup started and prior like 25% of the trope's designation was devoted too gushing over him?

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#20253: Jun 1st 2020 at 7:03:48 PM

There's a of potholes on his character page that I cut.

crankers Since: Mar, 2014
#20254: Jun 1st 2020 at 7:05:54 PM

Alright, Hades seems like a no. Well, I tried.

Edited by crankers on Jun 1st 2020 at 7:10:26 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20255: Jun 1st 2020 at 7:12:50 PM

And it was a good shot man, don't get discouraged, I think someone raised on CM today this one is a touch more difficult because you're actually dealing with both a floor and a ceiling for villainy. I sincerely thank you for bringing him up for discussion Crankers.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#20256: Jun 1st 2020 at 7:14:27 PM

@43: I don't even know how Lulu got listed in the first place. Literally half the plot of CG is people failing a spot check every five seconds, just so Lelouch can succeed. It's almost like he's the perfect subversion or parody of this trope.

I concur, excellent job on Hades. He seems like a good example on paper, and it's certainly no fault of yours that he didn't get approved.

Edited by Klavice on Jun 1st 2020 at 7:15:19 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20257: Jun 1st 2020 at 7:17:54 PM

The fact he's Evil Is Cool mixed with meeting the prerequisite Chessmaster, Manipulative Bastard, Xanatos stuff. This trope wasn't fantastically analyzed until we really started cracking down on it (see the how to page literally saying certain listed examples didn't count).

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#20258: Jun 1st 2020 at 8:02:02 PM

Yeah speaking of cuts, it looks like Augustine is going to get cut. Can you let the admins know to cut Augustine 43110?

Also here link to Augustine if there's anyone else who wants to vote cutting her

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#20259: Jun 1st 2020 at 8:03:30 PM

Cut if I didn't vote already.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#20261: Jun 1st 2020 at 8:56:11 PM

On YMMV.Defiance.

Why so serious?
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20262: Jun 1st 2020 at 9:15:53 PM

From the trope page Stahma sounds like the far better candidate. She seems to be indicated to be more intelligent and Datak apparently kills someone who saved his life because Datak had begged for his life in front of the guy and didn't want anyone to know about his embarrassment.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#20263: Jun 1st 2020 at 9:43:01 PM

I found this on the land of Oz Charachters sheets for the Wizard

  • Magnificent Bastard: And how! He is a very squishy, not physically imposing Muggle. But the storm blows him to Oz, and within weeks, using a combination of bluff, cons, Steampunk tech, and carny tricks, he has fooled four Witches into thinking he's way more powerful, maneuvered them into an Enforced Cold War, set himself up as an unquestioned God-Emperor And sold the real heir to the throne into slavery with a low-rent sorceress, bespelled as the incorrect gender to further obfuscate her identity. Baum played down the "bastard" part in later books, but modern writers (like Wicked and Oz the Great and Powerful) are apt to play up his questionable moral compass

Could someone cut as I can't edit?

And...honestly The OG! Wizard sounds like he could be a solid Keep.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#20264: Jun 2nd 2020 at 4:20:52 AM

@43: Kinda hilarious that him and light we're held up as the greatest examples of this trope despite the huge disqualifiers.

Also I would definitely want an ep on Hit.

Found this on Dragon Ball Z: Wrath of the Dragon

  • Magnificent Bastard: Although a little fish next to Hirudegarn, Hoi successfully manipulates the Z-Fighters into opening the music box by telling them that a great hero is trapped inside and will be needed in a coming crisis, which is the complete truth. He just neglects to mention that the hero will bring the crisis with him.

Uh....I haven't watched this film. No clue

Edited by miraculous on Jun 2nd 2020 at 4:25:09 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#20265: Jun 2nd 2020 at 4:25:09 AM

Cut this from YMMV.Land Of Oz.

Oscar Diggs. A third-rate Nebraska con man lands in a magical fairyland. He knows nothing of the land or its customs. He is very much a squishy, not very physically stout, Muggle. Yet, within weeks, using a combination of BS and carny tricks, he has bluffed the four most powerful magic users into standing down in an Enforced Cold War, made himself an undisputed God-Emperor, and kidnapped the true heir to the throne and sent her to Mombi, who raised her bespelled as the opposite gender! Baum played this aspect down in later books, but modern adaptations certainly have fun running with it. The Lost King of Oz has the Wizard feeling regret or guilt about what he'd done to Ozma.

Characters.Land Of Oz is next.

Edit: NVM, Doc took care of it.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jun 2nd 2020 at 7:26:19 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#20266: Jun 2nd 2020 at 4:27:09 AM

I think Oscar is worth a discussion at least. I've only read the first book though so can't be me sadly.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20267: Jun 2nd 2020 at 5:09:38 AM

Oscar indeed sounds worth a look.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#20268: Jun 2nd 2020 at 5:22:54 AM

Hoi has no charm to him whatsoever, and overestimates his control over Hirudegarn before being unceremoniously killed by it. Cut.

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Jun 2nd 2020 at 8:23:45 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20269: Jun 2nd 2020 at 6:25:39 AM

Rip Hoi... oh well, we got Hit coming (can't stress enough how turnt I am for this one).

Also User do you mind giving me Bowen's entry or do you want me to go through the EP and try to make one?

Edited by 43110 on Jun 2nd 2020 at 10:50:42 AM

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#20270: Jun 2nd 2020 at 11:40:32 AM

Yeah you can do it. I usually make my own write ups but damn I still don't know how to put it.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20271: Jun 2nd 2020 at 12:37:46 PM

All good... can you link me the EP?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#20272: Jun 2nd 2020 at 3:28:16 PM

Here

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#20273: Jun 2nd 2020 at 4:21:32 PM

Parts were a little hard but here it is to the best of my understanding:

  • Non-Stop: Tom Bowen is a Marine set to prove the lack of safety in the American airline security after his father's death during the September 11th, 2001 terrorist attack. Taking over a plan with Zach White, Bowen threatens to routinely murder passengers while keeping the heroes at bay and ensuring the TSA is informed of the threat presented. Ultimately planning to die when his bomb goes off, Bowen's convictions prove his intent truly is to ensure Americans increase security precautions for flights.

Thoughts? User you can add anything you'd like including potholes or rephrase anything if that's roughly accurate.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#20274: Jun 2nd 2020 at 4:34:15 PM

Was Pitch black from Rise of the Guardians ever discussed here ?

I was thinking of rewatching the film to see if he counted but want to know if he's come up before.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#20275: Jun 2nd 2020 at 4:46:57 PM

Honestly kind of remember him as being a little bit of a loser. But that's more of a personal dislike of him as a character, so you're free to rewatch it.

Edited by AustinDR on Jun 2nd 2020 at 4:47:36 AM


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