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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#19777: May 25th 2020 at 12:36:14 PM

[tup] to the Curator

I'm also into Discworld, who was your candidate?

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#19778: May 25th 2020 at 12:39:19 PM

[tup] Curator.

[down] Way ahead of you.

Edited by SkyCat32 on May 25th 2020 at 3:51:13 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19779: May 25th 2020 at 12:41:50 PM

Also for the sake of ceasing the edits that seem to occasionally be happening regarding the main, quotes and laconic pages I asked for them to be locked. Everyone seemed on board with the idea of doing so some time back but just so I've got it on record for Septimus can everyone throw in their official support here please?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19780: May 25th 2020 at 12:45:10 PM

[up][up][up]Con Man Moist von Lipwig from Going Postal and raising steam. Intelligent and sauve as hell. What do you think ?

[up]Sure. It will prevent people from unnecessarily adding changes to mess up the definition.

Edited by miraculous on May 25th 2020 at 12:45:27 PM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#19781: May 25th 2020 at 12:59:01 PM

I'm all for the pages being locked (I didn't realize the main page wasn't

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#19782: May 25th 2020 at 1:05:08 PM

All in on locking those pages.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#19783: May 25th 2020 at 1:32:02 PM

Aye.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#19784: May 25th 2020 at 1:51:25 PM

Same.

Also, have a White Wolf potential keeper here. Vlad Tepes Dracula.

Who is Dracula?

An old world Tzimisce who made himself into a ghoul by drinking a captive vampire's blood, Vlad sought and found himself learning from vampire elders while he tried to find a worthy Sire he could either persuade. Or victimize. Dracul had one ambition: to gain the Embrace and become a vampire on his own terms. He first approached an ancient Tzimisce named Yorak, but that ended badly when Yorak was an untrustworthy psycho living in a house made from people. Dracula escaped as the place devoured Yorak.

A Tzimisce elder named Lambach Ruthven opted to keep an eye on Dracula, but Dracula decided to work this into a plan, capturing Lambach's spy and learning of the Sabbat. Now, Dracula did have a tendency to capture enemy vampires and bleed them, which earned some...problems towards him. Larning of a planned Sabbat assault, Dracula alerted their rivals, the Camarilla to cause a conflict and sweep up the victors. Dracula watched the Camarilla mop up the Sabbat and then led his forces to turn the tide, crushing both and capturing Lambach and another Tzimisce, with few vampires escaping. Lambach and his sire Tabak were taken hostage. Dracula, knowing Lambach was the more cowardly of the duo gave him a choice: turn him or die. Lambach agreed and also forswore any further contact. Dracula then diablerized (drained to death) Tabak to gain his power, becoming way stronger than Lambach in the process.

Dracula freed Lambach and embarked on a crusade to crush and subdue the local Tzimisce, forcing them to swear loyalty to him, achieving the rank of Voivode, or prince of the region. Dracula has no true loyalty to Camarilla or Sabbat, eagerly playing them against one another....and just to dick with everyone? He manipulated Bram Stoker into writing a novel about him to spite the secrecy of the Masquerade.

He's still in Transylvania, all but untouchable.

How's he operate?

There are very, VERY few mortals who have garnered an embrace on their own terms. Dracula is one of them. He killed loads of vampries to gain their blood, manipulated the Sabbat and Camarilla, forced an elder to embrace him and plays them against one another regularly. Look, he's one of the best at this game in all of Vampire, pass and pass again.

Is he a bastard? Too much?

He killed loads of vampires, kills people to stay alive, diablerized his grandsire and is a pretty evil bastard. That said, he's a Tzimisce and while he's an undead monster, he's nowhere near as bad as "Body Horror: The Clan" can be. And he does, oddly, honor his word to Lambach, setting him free after the Embrace with just a warning to never trouble him ever again.

Overall, he's evil, but he's far from the nastiest of the setting and never gets up to revolting crimes. Like, killing mortals to feed from them is standard. Most Tzimisce will turn them into living furniture for kicks and giggles.

Conclusion?

a big yes to Vlad Dracul

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19785: May 25th 2020 at 1:54:32 PM

[tup]Count Dracula

I think he's in the lead as far as number of mb incarnations per character.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#19786: May 25th 2020 at 1:58:56 PM

Yes to Dracula, Director, and Curator.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19787: May 25th 2020 at 1:59:47 PM

Sounds kinda like Scirocco or Stillwell where in lieu of redeeming qualities it's more a matter of them being too pragmatic to be interested in having anything to do with the really nasty stuff going on as opposed to standards while still not compromising on their ambitions. It's a flair I like and I'll say yeah there.

@ mir, That's something I haven't been following... who else is even ranking?

Edited by 43110 on May 25th 2020 at 5:03:32 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#19788: May 25th 2020 at 2:02:52 PM

[tup]Dracula.

Edit: If we're counting something like that, I wouldn't be surprised if there are a ton of fictional versions of Otto von bismarck who count.

Edited by jjjj2 on May 25th 2020 at 5:05:17 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19789: May 25th 2020 at 2:07:13 PM

Stand currently at Lex Luthor (6), Loki (4), doctor doom (4) and with this one Dracula has 7

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#19791: May 25th 2020 at 2:17:11 PM

[tup] to Vlad "What is a Man?" Dracula, and the Vurator.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#19793: May 25th 2020 at 2:45:05 PM

[tup] to Dracula. I too would be in favor of locking the main, quotes, and laconic pages.

Also, deleted these from Big Finish Doctor Who:

  • Michael Jayston as the Valeyard.
  • The Dalek Time Controller, who manipulates history for the advancement of the Daleks. They are even smart enough to know when not to kill the Doctor due to the Web of Time. This is well-shown in "The Dalek Generation" (even if not in Big Finish it is attached to that continuity) where the Controller forces the Supreme Dalek to say it will obey him and comes very close into out-manipulating the Doctor through history into helping the Dalek plan to turn 400 planets into copies of Skaro. Unlike Dalek Caan, when hurled through time it doesn't turn against the Daleks in horror at what they have done but merely thinks of how it can enable the Daleks to rule the Universe.

Edited by falcontalons on May 25th 2020 at 2:54:55 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#19794: May 25th 2020 at 3:00:40 PM

[tup] to Dracula

Moist might not be nastard-y enough, but he's worth a look

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#19795: May 25th 2020 at 3:31:28 PM

Yes to Dracula.

@mir: I believe Ra’s is sitting at 6 as well.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19796: May 25th 2020 at 3:38:10 PM

Now that you guys say it I realize they’re all ones I would have suspected if I had bothered to think about it lol

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19797: May 25th 2020 at 4:16:53 PM

Oh right yeah theirs also satan at 8. Missed that yeah. Hes currently in the lead.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#19798: May 25th 2020 at 4:42:27 PM

You know I think that the Dalek Time Controller could count, though I actually surprised that no one to touched up on Doctor Who aside from Lighty doing those two Masters

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#19799: May 25th 2020 at 4:42:47 PM

[up][up]So Satan has both the most CM incarnations and MB incarnations. That's not really surprising.

Edited by Bullman on May 25th 2020 at 6:47:08 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#19800: May 25th 2020 at 4:43:35 PM

[tup] to Marlon Bishop, the Director, the Curator and Count Dracula.

[up][up] Mir and myself plan to cover the series at an unspecified date, we already have more than a few in mind.

Moved effort post to next page as it was literally at the bottom, sorry about that.

Edited by MGD107 on May 25th 2020 at 4:46:20 AM


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