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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19751: May 25th 2020 at 7:44:50 AM

What else can I say to a character who knows how nonsense the rules of the verse are and does damn well anything she can to see they don't get anymore so than: yes for she who does what must be done.

Also, here be a thing:

  • Assault on Precinct 13 (2005): Arrested crime lord Marion Bishop is forced to stay overnight at Precinct 13 due to poor weather conditions forcing the transport off the road and crooked Captain Marcus Duvall plans to kill him before he can testify in court. In a shaky alliance with hero Sergeant Jake Roenick, Bishop proceeds to improvise and adapt against the dozens of intruders. Devising a plan to kill a traitorous officer when caught, Bishop also holds out under torture from Duvall, allowing Jake to kill him, then escaping as dawn breaks.

Edited by 43110 on May 25th 2020 at 10:47:35 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#19752: May 25th 2020 at 7:48:55 AM

[tup] Director.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19753: May 25th 2020 at 7:56:52 AM

Also hit can you trim the Ginyu entry a bit? If not I can but I figure I may as well give you the first crack since it's yours.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#19754: May 25th 2020 at 8:06:28 AM

[tup] to the Director

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19755: May 25th 2020 at 8:22:39 AM

[tup]Director.

Shit I need to see this film now. It sounds insane.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19756: May 25th 2020 at 8:24:55 AM

It... tries to be fun. Joss was trying pretty hard with it but I didn’t find it particularly charming tbh.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#19757: May 25th 2020 at 8:25:59 AM

Abstaining on the director. Anthropic Principle seems like a crutch you can use to explain away any errors(and Big Red Button and forgetting that weed makes him The Immune seem like pretty big mistakes). That being said the movie is very meta...

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#19758: May 25th 2020 at 8:55:40 AM

That's what intrigues me. If a character can be disqualified for having the plot bend sideways to make them more competent, does the inverse necessarily hold true as well?

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19759: May 25th 2020 at 8:59:09 AM

I'd say no... I'll get to it eventually but the whole Lelouch planning to know exactly what Schneizel would say and how to react to it in a recording such that the latter thinks it's a live conversation? Is silly and there's the fact Schneizel is very much a Brilliant, but Lazy case where for all his genius, the work makes a point details can slip because he just doesn't care enough at times. He's respected enough by Lelouch to be left alive as Nunally's advisor in the new empire, so that speaks volumes for his intelligence there alone.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#19760: May 25th 2020 at 9:01:36 AM

I'll give an easy yea to the Director. It's one of my favorite films.

Edited by Riley1sCool on May 25th 2020 at 9:05:15 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#19761: May 25th 2020 at 9:02:05 AM

Yes to Bishop, Bardock (great to see more DBZ fanfic examples), and The Director.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#19762: May 25th 2020 at 9:10:01 AM

[up][up][up]What is your point there? That the plot bends over backwards to make lelouch more competent or that it bends over backwards to make schneizel incompetent. Or both?

Edited by jjjj2 on May 25th 2020 at 12:13:46 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#19764: May 25th 2020 at 9:12:52 AM

ETA: nvm.

Edited by Morgenthaler on May 25th 2020 at 9:35:40 AM

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
YamiVizziniX Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#19765: May 25th 2020 at 9:41:51 AM

There was that discussion on Arianna/Elena, where her being tracked down and executed at the last minute was basically deemed an Ass Pull and didn't mitigate her scheming up to then. So there's some precedent.

[tup] to the Director and Bardock.

There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19766: May 25th 2020 at 9:50:03 AM

That's correct Yami, we measure what we've got and just as with Complete Monster we ignore poorly imposed undertones—unelaborated hints of redeeming factors, etc.—we're not going to treat an absurdity in writing as conclusive proof a character has been outwitted or whatever. With the same character I recall they made her have a quick "Wait!" breaking her Defiant to the End attitude... likewise, if they were trying to say she had more cowardice or were trying to imply a Villainous Breakdown, the writing failed to expand upon the potential mitigating factor enough such that I'm inclined to say "Well that seems like a reasonable response to a gun in your face."

Edited by 43110 on May 25th 2020 at 1:29:05 PM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#19767: May 25th 2020 at 9:59:56 AM

I do feel a last minute minor Villainous Breakdown isn't really disqualifying. We have the aformentioned Arianna/Elena, but also Eric Knox from Charlie's Angels (2000). And I will say that the weed is probably somewhat minor as a mistake. The Big Red Button however, is a huge mistake. But as I stated the movie is very meta, so perhaps it's commenting on the nature of stories with Big Red Buttons. So I'm keeping my abstention.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#19769: May 25th 2020 at 11:11:26 AM

Yes to the Director and Bardock (I got to look at these two works)

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#19770: May 25th 2020 at 11:34:25 AM

Okay, here is someone i want to propose

What's the work?

Top Cow Production is a relatively small comics company, which, shall we say, "spawned" from Image Comics in early 1990s. Due to popularity of Shared Universes in comic industry, they decided to make one as well, its called Top Cow Universe or Witchblade Universe, since Witchblade is the biggest and most popular title in that line and all other comics from the verse look minor in comparisment (Even The Darkness is technically a spin-off, since Jackie Estacado, protagonist of The Darkness comic, first appeared in 10 issue of Witchblade comic). The Shared Universe started from Cyberforce comic (which was rebooted 3 times, each giving the team new origin story) and continues to this day and was rebooted in 2011 with the Artifacts crossover event.

My candidate is the Big Bad of the events, which led to Reboot - the one, know as the Curator.

Who is the Curator? What has he done?

Before the current universe, there was another, the one filled with peace and where humanity was at its peak. Humanity of that universe manage to discover that their universe is going to end soon, since the universes were dying and being born anew was the endless natural cycle. One man was born with imprinted code of the universe, who would survive the destruction and will be the key to creation of the new universe, it was called the Codex. He was tasked with helping to figure out how humanity can save this universe. But he failed and the universe and his family, whom he loved most of all, were destroyed and he survived. Filled with grief, the Man watched the birth of the new universe and started making a plan to bring his universe and family back.

Taking the name of Curator, the Man also took a form of an elderly man and started orchestrating the events, which would bring all 13 artifacts to him, as well the this universe's Codex. Metting Sara Pezzini in modern times, he started helping her to take control of her Witchblade (she possesed half of it during by that time, the other half was used by Danielle Baptiste) and has her recover some of his magical stuff. Tricking Finn (Jackie's hired goon, who looked after Sara and their daughter) into wearing Glacier Stone (one of the 13 artifacts), which gived him the ability to turn into an Ice Monster and making him its wielder, he also shown to play "games" with his brother and outsmart him every time, with the most recent being them putting Sara and Danielle against each other and see which side will win. Over time, managing to track down all artifacts and their wielders, Curator put his plan in motion.

Having Aphrodite Gather a team of villains, who hated each wielder (and also wielded some of the Artifacts themselves), and taking control of Aphrodite IV android, he has her murder Sara's sister, Julie Pezzini, and kidnap Sara's and Jackie's daughter Hope (since Julie was watching over Hope at the time). After faking his own death, he has Aphrodite manipulate Cyberforce into fighting all 13 wielders of the Artifacts and when they figure out the lie and destroy most of Aphrodite's body, he reveals that he has whole army of such androids and uses the head of destroyed Aphrodite to transport this army to heroes base and take out everyone, taking most of the wielders to his base. Along the way he playfully talks with Hope about his former life and his motives, as well as to captured wielders. Luring Jackie and Sara to his base too, he captures them and takes what he needs from Sara and Jackie, preparing to use the Artifacts that he has to destroy the current universe and then use Hope to rebuild his old one. As the heroes arrive at his base, they free all of the wielders and battle him and his team, only for Curator to succeed regardless and wipe out the universe blank and prepare to kill Hope to ressurect his old universe. Jackie manages to kill him and when Sara, with great struggle, decided to kill Hope to bring back their universe, fights her and takes away Hope, creating the universe of his design, where the events are a little different than in their own. Then he visited Curator, while he was still unprepared to enact his plan and wasn't aware of his identity and kills him, while the Curator dies confused as to who Jackie even is.

How do his actions and personality show he is a Magnificent Bastard?

One of the biggest masterminds of the entire Top Cow Universe. Manipulated the events from behind so flawlessly, that everything has gone exactly as he planned, until the final issues of his arc (he is only in first third of the crossover series) and even then he suceeded at wiping out the universe clean and only failing to recreate his old one due to being killed by Jackie, while he tried to kill Hope. No single character suspected him of anything, while he was in his elderly form, until he revealed himself to them. He is also shown to realtively easily manipulate his team of villains and have them do what he commands. Hell, he even dominates The Darkness in their first fight.

Mitigating factors?

The only one i can think off is his death in recreated universe, but i think its mitigated in fact that he is not shown to beg for his life and only freaks out, when Jackie unleashed his Darklings against him and they teared him apart. Also, he has no way of knowing who Jackie is and what he can do at that moment, leading to him being caught unprepared for such an attack. In addition, considering that nearly all character were changed a little in Jackie's new universe (like Dani working in the police and Sara being a private detective and e.c), it is also possible that Curator was also changed a little, with the possibility that he didn't even planned the destruction of the universe in the rebuild reality.

Aside from that, Curator isn't shown to commit any unnecesary and revolting crimes, his desire to destroy the universe is entierly fueled by the fact that he truly believes that his old universe was better and his wants to be with his family again. Also he is always polite (not even swearing once, which is a rarity in Top Cow). He doesn't even shows to enjoy any of the pain that he inflicts, rather being undifferent about it and even his intention of killing a child is mitigated by the fact that it is a necessary thing he must do to restore his old universe.

Verdict?

What do you think?

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#19771: May 25th 2020 at 11:38:57 AM

[tup]The Curator.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19772: May 25th 2020 at 11:53:10 AM

[tup]curator

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19775: May 25th 2020 at 12:13:27 PM

Does anyone read Discworld here. Theirs a guy I was thinking of doing but I haven't read too many of the books so wouldn't mind a second opinion

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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