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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#19601: May 22nd 2020 at 7:34:45 AM

I'm not seeing any magnificence here. Just "he's a terrorist. He does attacks and avoids the hero."

I'm also pretty sure he was just a failed CM candidate.

Edited by Lightysnake on May 22nd 2020 at 7:39:12 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#19602: May 22nd 2020 at 7:41:35 AM

@Lighty I was not there for CM discussion. I would not know anything about that (easy to see why he is not a CM though).

[nja]Does not surprise me he was discussed and not approved as a CM. I just was not involved is what I am saying.

Again, he is very similar to Korshunov in many respects (who does count as an MB).

Edited by futuremoviewriter on May 28th 2020 at 1:33:11 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#19603: May 22nd 2020 at 7:42:06 AM

I am definitely getting cleverness, but he's losing it too much at the end for me. [tdown]Aziz.

Edited by jjjj2 on May 22nd 2020 at 10:57:04 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19604: May 22nd 2020 at 7:44:03 AM

From my recollection of the film he's pretty well just a terrorist who has to deal with being Played for Laughs all the time thanks to the tone of the movie (see him trying to make a threat video and the camera running out of power). He wants to be taken seriously and I guess you could say there's some charm to him but that's more due to how silly the work is as opposed to anything inherent to him. Also he got tried for CM? Really?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#19605: May 22nd 2020 at 7:47:00 AM

  • Road to Perdition: Michael Sullivan is a hitman in service of John Rooney. One of the most feared in the business who maintains a love for his family, Sullivan is betrayed by his boss's son Connor who sets him up for death and murders his wife Annie and son Peter. With his surviving child Michael Jr, Sullivan goes on the run and seeks to erode the Rooney relationship with the Capones by targeting mob banks and stealing their money. Staying ahead of the Capones and Rooney killers alike, Sullivan eventually targets John Rooney directly, knowing his death will revoke Connor's protection permanently.
  • Road To Perdition: A war hero turned hitman for John Looney, known as the Angel of Death,''Michael O'Sullivan is betrayed by the paranoid, bloodthirsty Connor Looney and his family killed except for his son Michael Jr. Targeting mob banks and stealing their money to weaken the Capones, Michael teals the Looney ledger to give it to Elliot Ness and his Untouchables to remove Looney from power and weaken the Capone outfit to the point they give him Connor. Repeatedly a step ahead of pursuers until the end, Michael wages an effective war against the most powerful mob in the country with only his son, skills and cunning.
  • Escape from New York: Snake Plissken is a special forces soldier with a dark past, sent in to rescue the President from New York. Performing his mission, Snake is so disgusted at the President's ambivalence towards those who died saving him that he sets him up to be humiliated on the world stage and destroys the tape he would have used at a peace summit. Recruited in the sequel, Escape from LA to retrieve a doomsday device's key, Snake again performs his mission and prepares for betrayal by fooling the corrupt President's men, using a hologram to disguise his true location and shutting down the world to cripple the President and the revolutionaries, giving humanity a chance to start over while he himself plans to simply disappear.
  • Django Unchained: Django Freeman, to recover his wife from Candyland, undergoes the tutelage of Dr. King Schultz. Playing the part of a black slaver and never breaking his character, no matter how brutal things get, after Schultz's death, Django shows how much he has learned when he is sold to the brutal LeQuint-Dickey Mining Company. Using a spare bounty bill and his own natural charm, Django convinces the slavers that there is a fortune waiting for them in Candyland, even tricking them into unchaining him so he can get a gun and kill them all. Returning to Candyland, Django massacres all of the Candies' soldiers and traps the returning leaders in a house full of dynamite, gunning most down and leaving the evil power behind the throne, Stephen, for the explosion before riding off with his wife for freedom.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#19606: May 22nd 2020 at 7:48:27 AM

@43 I would say he is one of the things in the movie mostly played seriously. Yeah, there is some humor around him, but I did not see him as that much of a joke.

[nja] There are also a few cool and badass shots of him in the movie, such as one of him triumphantly standing in front of fire.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on May 22nd 2020 at 7:57:56 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#19607: May 22nd 2020 at 7:52:17 AM

[tdown] to Aziz

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19608: May 22nd 2020 at 7:53:57 AM

It's not so much that he's played for laughs that bothers me as I recall it was mostly just shit happening to/around him that the laughs came from. If he was like Hans or Sinclair and got some witty lines himself I'd be more willing to say yes but between that and his increasing breaking of composure as time goes on and events get more stressful, I can't see him as much beyond a fairly standard action villain, if a funnier one.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19609: May 22nd 2020 at 7:55:06 AM

[tdown]aziz

Did we ever discuss any one from Charmed (1998). I think the seer and Gideon would be good choices at least.

Edited by miraculous on May 22nd 2020 at 8:11:11 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19610: May 22nd 2020 at 8:20:50 AM

We have not that I recall.

Also, from Ajin:

  • Magnificent Bastard:
    • Sato. He consistently makes impressive use of his abilities to take on impossible odds with complete nonchalance. Notably, his plan to infiltrate the security building Kei defends is brilliant in its simplicity: he cuts off and deep-fries his hand, sends it to the staff amidst a box of fried chicken, then destroys his entire body to regenerate from the largest piece, i.e. that hand. Which at that point was on the security staff's dinner table. Yeah. His plane hijacking strategy was damn good too. There's also one of his assassinations, where his whole plan is to drop an entire skyscraper on his target!
    • Kei can hold his own pretty well, once he starts trying.

Sato is on my to do list and... well wait for me to get to it, you'll see. Kei could be worth discussion as well but these need serious discussion so down they go for now.

Edited by 43110 on May 22nd 2020 at 11:27:08 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19611: May 22nd 2020 at 8:29:37 AM

Oh I heard about Sato. Isn't he considered one of the coolest new villains in anime /manga from what I've heard.

Anyway cut for now at least till the eps.

Edited by miraculous on May 22nd 2020 at 8:33:12 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19612: May 22nd 2020 at 8:38:08 AM

He's... uh, well, again, you'll see.

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#19613: May 22nd 2020 at 10:48:26 AM

Saw True Lies last night as it happens and I'll have to go [tdown]. He's a good villain, but I find him simply competent enough to pose a credible threat like Ambrose from Johnny English Reborn. The problem with the Kurshunov comparisons is that Air Force One is a comparatively more serious film than True Lies and I'm of the opinion that the tone dictates the standards and/or leeway to which an MB is held in terms of his charm and coolness factor. Being taken seriously after a few comedy moments or freakouts, fair enough, but as pointed out, they got too frequent towards the end. It can work like with Wadsworth from Clue, but even then, it's left up in the air how much that's down to him playing dumb.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#19614: May 22nd 2020 at 10:51:36 AM

You know, considering the Godfather books end up taking a different course from the movies, I wonder if their version of Michael Corleone could qualify.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#19615: May 22nd 2020 at 10:53:14 AM

  • Stargate Atlantis: Todd is an old Wraith who has proven himself far more pragmatic and cunning than the rest of his ilk. After circumstances force him and Colonel Sheppard together and agree to team up to break out of a Genii prison, Todd would continually make alliances with the Atlantis expedition for his own benefit and to improve his position among the Wraith, even while sacrificing his fellow Wraith in the process. Todd's alliance-brokering hastens the demise of the Asurans, almost gains him access to a Wraith cloning facility and a super-hiveship, and puts him in charge of the largest Wraith faction in the Pegasus Galaxy by having Teyla pose as his Queen and usurp the position of the Queen Primarch. Todd is remarkable for the degree to which he can improvise his plans when faced with unexpected circumstances, leading Sheppard to remark that working with him is like walking around with a live grenade. At the same time, Todd has a charismatic and poetic side to him unmatched by other Wraith, and has managed to stay alive for almost 10,000 years of scheming.
  • Enemy at the Gates: Major Erwin Konig is an experienced sniper in the Wehrmacht who has trained many of Germany's sharpshooters at his academy in Zossen. Konig joins the ongoing Battle of Stalingrad to personally eliminate Soviet sniper Vasily Zaitsev and the boost he's giving to Soviet morale out of revenge for his son's death. While hunting for Zaitsev, Konig sets several sucessful traps for his opponent while avoiding ones laid for him in turn, even killing an expert who actually trained with him. Konig befriends the Russian boy Sasha and bribes him for information on Zaitsev while knowing that Sasha was a Double Agent attempting to lead him to his death the entire time, only killing him after Sasha heeds his warnings to not get involved anymore. A quiet, stoic soldier, Konig has equal capacity for politeness and utter ruthlessless, and even when he ultimately loses to Vasily he calmly accepts his impending death.

Edited by Morgenthaler on May 22nd 2020 at 11:26:22 AM

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#19616: May 22nd 2020 at 10:54:22 AM

Imperial might have a point. The Godfather novel is a different canon and cuts off right when Michael 'settles all family business,' without becoming a broken shell of a man who murders Fredo.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19617: May 22nd 2020 at 10:58:39 AM

I would concur.

[up][up] Looks good Morgen, we just don't pothole the Xanatos stuff.

Edited by 43110 on May 22nd 2020 at 1:59:37 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19618: May 22nd 2020 at 10:59:08 AM

Plus the novel did come first too.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#19619: May 22nd 2020 at 11:05:37 AM

[up][up] Pretty much expected for this trope, or sinkhole concerns?

[down] Gotcha.

Edited by Morgenthaler on May 22nd 2020 at 1:26:13 AM

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19620: May 22nd 2020 at 11:14:21 AM

Oh no issue with sinkholes bud, it's just that any MB who is put in a scenario where they have to pull a Xanatos scheme has to be capable of it (for some reason the how to page mistakes that and The Trickster). The only time you won't see a character pull it off is if their initial scheme brings them to victory without need for adjustment—and even that hypothetical scenario would have its on issues.

KingofNightmares Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#19621: May 22nd 2020 at 1:13:05 PM

I cut these two unapproved entries from Bakugan

  • Magnificent Bastard:
    • Masquerade. The guy is a strategic mastermind who only ever loses one battle fairly, and constantly adapts his plans to the opposition of the Brawlers and even turns their efforts to stop him to his advantage. If something gets in his way, he jsut looks for an effective solution.
    • Mag Mel. He's been one step ahead of everyone the entire season. Even when he loses he ultimately comes out on top. Part of this is being an extremely good Chess Master, the other part is manipulating people to play into his hand. Though he's an Omnicidal Maniac, he normally has multiple plans going at once to the same goal so if one fails, he's got several backups ready. While he himself lacks charisma to some degree, he realized this and created two extremely charismatic Co-Dragons to do this for him, to wonderful effect.

I haven't seen this show since I was 8, so I can't really say who counts. That said, I have my doubts on Mag Mel because he mind violates people while enjoying it and is a Complete Monster. But is it okay if I put Bakugan on my to-do list?

"It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times?"
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19622: May 22nd 2020 at 1:27:41 PM

Sure cut. From memory Masquerade would at least count. The weird twist on his true identity aside.

Anyway soon I will have a few examples from once upon a time and Ninjago. Around five a piece.

That said I wouldn't mind other people's opinions so anyone else whose seen either can pm me to discuss.

Edited by miraculous on May 22nd 2020 at 1:30:33 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
KingofNightmares Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19625: May 22nd 2020 at 2:17:45 PM

Also on Gabriel Knight.

Would it kill people to actually say what the character does. Uh anyway Lighty and Ravok I know you guys have played this. What do you think on this dude.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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