During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Prefacing this with a happy birthday to Duck and here's a fun one to celebrate it (also thank you for reminding me to get to this guy):
What's the work?
Drive Angry is a movie knowingly So Bad, It's Good starring Nicolas Cage as John Milton, a revenant escaping from Hell trying to save his granddaughter from the Satanist cult that killed his daughter, teaming up with downtrodden but spirited waitress Piper. While trying to stop the cult and their leader Jonah King, Milton also has to evade Satan's accountant of souls because that's a thing here, the man who describes his job as tracking down the "badass motherfuckers" who escape.
Who is the Accountant? What has he done?
Looking for Milton, he comes to Earth, a dapper gentleman in a nice suit showing manners to a working waitress and threats to those who accost him, even killing Piper's abusive ex-fiancé after using the people he runs across for information. Using magic to materialize an FBI badge, the Accountant strings along two ambitious police officers, intending to have them fatally wound Milton so he can bring him back to Hell. After the officers are killed by Piper and Milton the Accountant comes for them in a squad car, ramming them until Milton draws the "Godkiller"—a weapon capable of leaving even the supernatural Deader than Dead—and is forced off as the two flip his car off the bridge (merrily whistling and giving two stoners a scare afterwards).
By interrogating one of King's cultists, the Accountant learns of Milton's purpose to save his granddaughter and, disgusted with the idea of human sacrifice just as his boss apparently is, sets out to help Milton and Piper, forcing down an entire police squadron preparing to kill them and forcing a satanist cop to phone King and inform him Milton has been killed. At the site Milton's granddaughter is to be killed the Accountant takes Piper hostage to force Milton to talk with him and reveals he's giving Milton a fighting chance to save the child: happy to take the Xanatos Gambit scenario of Milton either completing his task or being incapacitated and allowing the Accountant to return him to Hell. Distracting King at a crucial moment, he also gives Milton the opening to kill his foe before happily accepting the latter's challenge for his next escape attempt to Hell, ending the film as he lets Milton drive them both back.
How do his actions and personality show he is a Magnificent Bastard?
How don't they? The Accountant is polite to people he sees as good, manipulates and gathers information as he needs and as soon as he learns of Milton's plight brings his Chessmaster skills to the table against the police barricade and assists Milton in taking down the utter bastard that is King.
Mitigating factors?
Might be an evil demon but the guy is very much a Noble Demon and though he has powers, uses them sparingly, instead favouring his mastery of words.
Verdict?
One "badass motherfucker" for your special day Duck!
Hell yes to the Accountant and thanks to 43 for his input here, but...
What's the work?
Escape from New York and Escape from LA are movies by John Carpenter, set in a nightmarishly dystopian future. Crime has skyrocketed and in the former? Manhattan is a penal colony. When you go in, you don't come out. The problem? The president is shot down and taken hostage by the Duke of New York, the top prisoner there. They need a man to save the day, so they get a political prisoner, ex-special forces soldier named Snake Plissken, played by Kurt Russell. (Fun fact? Russell was known for being a child Disney star then. This reinvented him as an action hero)...Snake is sent in to New York to save the President, with an explosive collar should he fail. Now...
Who is Snake Plissken?
A cold special forces soldier missing an eye. Snake has had his idealism broken by an unjust world, especially by an unspecified incident in Kansas City. Everyone heard he was dead, but Snake Plissken is very much alive. Sent into New York, Snake proves himself a quick adapter, navigating the hellish domain of New York, making allies and killing his way through bad guys. Snake manages to get to the Duke and rescue the President...it also turns out the President has a tape that can cause world peace with the secrets of converting nuclear fusion. Snake ends up bringing the President back, but is so disgusted by the president's nonchalant and callous attitude towards the people who died to save him that he humiliates him by swapping out the tape with cabbie music and destroys the real one as he walks away...
Now, the sequel is where Snake shows better chops. Injected with a virus, he's sent into LA, which is now a bigger penal colony with a more evil President. Snake is given orders to find the President's traitorous daughter Utopia and the device to control the EMP satellite Sword of damocles which can shut down an entire nation...as an LA revolutionary named Cuervo Jones is leading the charge to try to take over the country....Snake manages to navigate LA frighteningly well, even getting out of captivity from the monstrous Surgeon General of Beverly Hills by using him as a hostage to escape, before being captured by Cuervo Jones and sentenced to prove himself in...a Basketball challenge: full court, make five baskets with ten seconds to make a basket each...nobody has ever walked off the court alive. Until Snake Plissken, who wins the entire army over to chant his name. Now, Snake manages to get the right allies and complete his mission as war looms on the horizon. Utopia is dragged off for execution, but Snake? Is so disgusted by the President and his wicked ways that he uses a hologram to fool his forces, having reached a safe distance...and he shuts off the power to the entire world to stop both the US and the war itself. When asked what he'll do, Snake coolly remarks he'll just disappear. Snake shuts down the world and calmly lights a final cigarette, remarking at the end: "Welcome to the human race."
How's he operate?
Snake is a tough, resilient bastard. HE also exudes cool. Russell portrays him as a hard-bitten, badass soldier who carries himself with quiet charisma and magnetism. Now, Snake is a bit of a reactive force when the films start: he's sent into bad situations and coerced into it. He tends to roll with the punches as best he can, but both times? Snake takes control at the end. He tricks the first President to humiliate him...and then screws over the President and Cuervo Jones' faction and sets the entire human race back 500 years without a hitch. In both cases? Snake wins and he does it brilliantly.
Now, the only issue...Snake is a misanthrope because of his bad experiences. He has no faith left in his country or mankind. The only issue is when he meets Hershe, a transwoman who he knew as Carjack. Snake uses 'Carjack' for her, even when she's annoyed about it. I'm willing to cut this slack as Deadnaming wasn't seen as mortally rude in the 80s-90s, but Snake says he doesn't care that Hershe is a man or a woman, he only cares that she tried to screw him over....he makes it pretty clear it's personal annoyance and habit as opposed to bigotry. Like Sam Spade, he's a misanthrope, not a bigot and his only problem with Hershe is her old screwing him over.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Snake isn't particularly nasty...most times. He's cold and ruthless...but he's so revolted by the President he screws over a shot at world peace and by the end he shuts down power to the world with potentially massive consequences for mankind, but also a chance to begin again.
Still...Snake's got a conscience. He's loyal to people close to him, he has a brutal past, and at the end, he's always up against people worse than he is. He loathes the second president especially and what he's made of Americca. When one comments America is no smoking, no alcohol, no women outside of marriage, curfews, no red meat... "Land of the free."
But hell, Snake can be a prick, and it's a reason we love him for it.
Conclusion?
Happy birthday to Duck and a big yes to Snake Plissken.
Based on the EP,
to the Accountant. This movie sounds freaking insane (I read the CM entry for King too). I got to see it sometime.
Happy Birthday Demon Duck!
I might do Hummel myself. Anyone else wants to take him though? By all means! I welcome it!
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I guess we are nailing out yet another icon this weekend after Django, huh? I hear those movies are also nuts and I got to see them too. Based on the EP,
to Snake.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on May 21st 2020 at 10:52:27 AM
Yes to Accountant and SNAAAAAAKE.
Happy birthday to Demon Duck too.
Since Edelgard was approved due to her actions in the Crimson Flower route of Three Houses but not the other routes. And Jafar counts in Aladdin 2, can a single iteration of a character qualify if they don't count in say, an AU or another story? Like say someone did an alternate take on Light where his death was more of a Heel Realization and he asked Matsuda and Ryuk to kill him, and was more stoic than Smug, would he be a contender then?
I know I shouldn't keep talking hypotheticals but I was considering doing a post on a character who obviously doesn't count in their first iteration but does in an alternate universe eventually. Like a Let's Play of Animal Crossing where Tom Nook is a mafia boss?
Also Luke Atmey is listed under an MB pothole in AssholeVictim.Visual Novels but I'm pretty damn sure we didn't approve him, and if we didn't, he's an easy non-keeper due to extreme arrogance, Smug Snake qualities, and a rather conceited Villainous Breakdown where he says nobody could match his genius.
Edited by Klavice on May 21st 2020 at 11:41:05 AM
Edlegard is most successful in the Crimson Flower route... we concluded she was a keeper overall and it's not like she only counts in one path; Jafar, as we've explained many times, grows into this, same thing as TAS!Lex Luthor. It's not that they flip flop: it's that they end on this not. This has all been made abundantly multiple times and we cut Scott Shelby because of his behaviour in one of the endings (granted, I'm not sure unless we're looking at a Bondrewd case we should really be looking at "Kills kids as a Serial Killer for the greater good" but that's not what took him down). If there's reason to believe the character as a whole is this trope and they show it most in one path, then sure... if they seem to suddenly get the Smart Ball, then no.
Finished the movie a little while ago. This is now ready and rearing to go!
What is the work?
True Lies is a 1994 action epic that has since become a big staple of those type of 90s movie and one of the most memorable starring Arnold Schwarzenegger. It focuses on Harry Tasker, a secret super agent from the government-funded Omega Sector, keeping his real life hidden from his wife and daughter until he not only uses his resources to tail his wife’s possible affair, but then that life (and by extension, the villains) comes to find him and them. One of them is definitely worth talking about.
Who is he and what has he done?
Salim Abu Aziz is the leader of the extremist cell Crimson Jihad. Having committed multiple attacks in the past when in other cells, Aziz achieves four nuclear Soviet warheads and is able to sneak them into America using four giant statues thanks to antiques dealers Jamal Khaled and Juno Skinner (the latter of which I tried for CM years ago). When he realizes Harry is onto him, Aziz tails him and attempts to kill him. In the ensuing chaos, he escapes the detection of Harry’s friend and partner Albert "Gib" Gibson and inadvertently shoots one of his own men while going after Harry.
On the run, Aziz holds Harry and Gib off with gunfire and steals a motorcycle. Pursued by Harry on horseback, Aziz rides into a hotel and takes a woman hostage in the elevator, getting a head start. Harry boards another elevator and makes it to the roof immediately after, but Aziz rides off the roof and into the pool of another building and escapes thanks to Harry’s horse not being able to follow (too scared).
Later on, Aziz has Juno arrange for Harry and his wife Helen to be abducted and taken to him in the Florida Keys. Harry is forced to help confirm the danger and stop playing dumb when Aziz threatens Helen with a knife. Aziz then after making a video to issue his intentions to America with the warheads if they do not pull their forces out of Persia and covers one in cement after he activates it. It later goes off just to demonstrate the power and not to kill anyone. He also wipes out a tracker on Harry when his men find it.
As Harry and Helen escape and Harry starts causing a lot of trouble, Aziz fires a rocket at a gas truck near him and nearly kills him. He then keeps Helen alive because she could still be useful and then kidnaps Harry’s teenage daughter Dana. After Harry helps secure and destroy the other warheads and saves Helen from Juno (who dies in the chaos), he sets out to save Dana and stop Aziz with a Harrier Jet.
While Aziz is recording and preparing to state that he and his men (holding up on an upper floor in a building) are willing to go with the bomb if their demands are not met, Dana steals the bomb key and Aziz and some men (who later go to the helicopter) pursue her to a crane on the roof. As Harry and another agent Faisal take out the rest of the men in the building, Harry then catches Dana with the Harrier.
Aziz loses his gun, but jumps aboard the Harrier and fights Harry with a knife. He then retrieved the gun and (I do not blame him for not realizing this) Harry turns the Harrier and Aziz slides off with his vest getting caught onto a missile. Harry arms the missile, declares "You're fired" and launches Aziz on the missile through an opening in the building and into the helicopter, blowing them all up.
Is he magnificent?
Managed to pull off multiple attacks for years and been able to avoid capture, with the escape from Harry being an especially awesome sequence. While not matching Harry physically, he definitely does in intelligence. Granted Aziz has to rely on Khaled and Juno to get his weapons to different places, that said, it is clear that much of the planning is done himself as to how to pull off the actual attacks.
Aziz and his men have also managed to avoid detection through posing as carpenters or labor workers. When he catches the tail of the Harrier between his legs at the end of the film, it stuns him a moment, but he does recover right away and retrieve his gun. He also is thrown for a moment by Dana stealing the key, but definitely shows his determination to get it back and almost follows through, attempting to be nice to her a promise she will not get hurt and only taking offense when Dana calls him a "wacko". He is also a little puzzled by being caught on the missile and lets out a death scream. However, that is understandable to anyone though.
Bastard? Too much?
Yeah, he is a radical terrorist. That said, much like Korshunov, he definitely believes in his cause and sees himself as being in the right, that Americans are the antagonists and oppressors from his perspective. There is his threat of slitting Helen’s throat to coax Harry into helping verify the threat too. This also is simply to use leverage against Harry to his advantage and not to be outright cruel. Kidnapping Dana is also to have another bargaining chip and something he planned as another means to keep Harry in line.
He loses it a couple times when threatening Dana near the end admittedly. One time though is immediately followed by him sweet-talking her to get the key back and the other to force Harry to land the Harrier. He smacks Juno a couple times for letting Harry get too close, but even registers a lot of control when doing that too (also, Juno is an unsympathetic bitch). He also is a bit agitated by one of his men informing him of a dead camera battery while he is recording a speech, but even then, fights to keep control of himself and after a quick outburst, becomes calm yet again (again, comparing him very favorably to Korshunov who also was prone to losing his cool now and then).
Verdict?
He is a
in my book.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on May 22nd 2020 at 7:37:53 AM

Working on something I'll have ready in a few hours but it's more fun for it to be a surprise.