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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19201: May 14th 2020 at 7:37:08 AM

Now one for you.

Whats the work?

Angels of Music is a 2016 novel by Kim Newman. It transposes the premise of Charlie's Angels into a 19th-century Massive Multiplayer Crossover, depicting a detective agency founded in the 1870s by a secretive genius who lives beneath the Paris Opera House, with his protegée Christine as one of the founding agents alongside Trilby O'Ferrall and Irene Adler.

The novel is divided into five "Acts", each depicting an adventure from a different period of the Opera Ghost Agency's operation and featuring a different line-up of Angels. (Later Angels include Elizabeth Eynsford Hill, Gilberte Lachaille, Sophy Kratides, a vengeful Japanese lady named Yuki, and Newman's own Kate Reed, among others of more obscure origins.) There is also one shorter story, described as an "entr'acte" (the term for a piece of music written to be played in the intermission between acts of an opera) So heres the first mb keeper (but not the last by a long shot) for Kim Newman.

Who is the phantom of the opera?

My man Eric himself. The Phantom is here the mask wearing head of the opera detective agency (an agency basically designed for the wealthy or other more morally ambiguous associates of Eric's allowing eric to profit from). A cold, calm chessmaster, eric sends his angels on missions all leading up to his big scheme. Anyway:

  • Act I (Marriage Club): Anyway he discovers Caglistro is using robotic duplicates of young women to seduce wealthy men and then replace them with her dolls in her bid for world domination. Eric hypnotizes two of his angels Trilby and Christine so that they'll react to a musical note when the time is right. Anyway Caglistro catches the angels and is about to overwhelm them when Eric arrives and uses the signal to hypnotise Trilby and Christine into becoming fighting machines (fighting off the aches and bruise so they can decimate Caglistro's machines) meanwhile Eric creates an even greater orchestra, sending the next signal. Christine and T Rilby uses their voices to send psionic pulse which busts the heads of the dolls and makes Caglistro's eyes bleed, forcing her out and waking up all the prisoners who've been drugged. He destroys the ship their own but not before getting everyone offboard to safety thanks to Eric's second-in-command The Persian (uh mostly. Their were 3 deaths but their apparently guys we wont miss).
  • Act II (Les Vampire): Doesnt really do much but he helps the Grand Vampire clear his name in return for a favor that will be very helpful later.
  • Interlude: Irene is uh in a slump. Shes uh not taken to married life well and has become obsessed with the idea that her husband must have something wrong. She goes to eric, her mentor for advice. He senses due to his ability to read people how determined she is that something must be wrong and how its started to eat away at her and calmly lies to her that yes something is wrong. Prompting her divorce and entering a life of crime of her own.
  • Act III ( Guigonol): Anyway investigating a weird rash of murders that have hit the streets of Paris, Eric gets word from his friend Guigonol that hes in danger and concots a plan to help him. He has one of his angels Clara infiltrate the circle and try to become a member of theirs. It works though she also ends up having to kidnap another of his angels, Kate to go along with it. Now with all the red circle members together, they strike. Eric disables all the snipers that are positioned above the theatre to kill any escapees and carefully puts a noose around the neck of one, the sultan and setting him on fire. This distraction is enough for Clara to free Kate and Guginol who proceed to bucther the red circle for their crimes. The day is saved and Guigonol adds that hell help Eric when the time is right.
  • Act IV ( Mark of Kane): Charles Foster Kane plans to start a war between europe and america, intending to profit off the eventual american win and increase his newspaper sales. In order to finance his operation, hell need to launder the money to the assasins and sabouters and has created a large casino game whereupon his sabouters will win these "earnings" and use the payment to start. Eric sends his angels to bust the operation upon orders from a goverment source (Mycroft Holmes I think it would have been). Anyway as the casino proves weirdly ineffective in the sense that kane (the house) keeps winning, Eric sends one of his robot minions to sabotage the electrical system all of a sudden all the cards and coins and chips start flying out at random and cause absolute chaos as the guests turn on each other (no honour among crooks) and start to loot the place. Krane is knocked on his ass up by one of Eric's angels and starts hallucinating about roses and buds. (Newman you ). Eric's robot minion also frees the cattle that are kept on this estate and they end up chasing the cowboys meant to tend them and the guests. Kane leaves with his operation in tatters and the war plans scuttled. Its revealed that the main reason that Eric decided to put Kane out of business was not primarily because of the war but because Kane was planning to buy the paris opera house and have the stones shipped to Chicago and well Eric wouldn't let that happen as he says with a smile.
  • Act V Deluge: Cagilstro has flooded Paris and murdered Eric's friend the persian in an attempt to draw him out for a final curtain call. Eric sends his robot Olympia to meet with his former angels Adler and Kate to protect them and for his final scheme. Cagilstro and Assolant captures Kate and Adler intending to execute them in front of Eric having sent a spy into his organisation in order to help betray them and bring them here. Eric though reveals that he knew about said spy/traitor in advance and had Olympia programmed to disable her and free kate and adler. Then Eric pulls his ace: all the allies and favours he gained throughout the book all arrive wearing his mask (Guigonol, the vampires, etc) and overwhelm Cagilstro's coup. Cagilstro in a rage at being beaten lunges to kill Eric and one of his angels Unora but Eric shoves Unora out of the way and grabs Caglistro, sending them both into the raging flood waters to their seeming deaths.

Magnificent ?

Naturally. Eric is a calm composed plotter always with a new plan to combat his latest obstacle. He plans for ever eventuality and ends up playing pretty much every character in the book. Cagilstro sends a traitor to his organisation; Hell disable her. Need to find out more about the red circle : send a mole to infiltrate and get close enough to shut the whole thing down. Kane's casino: turn the entire thing into a farce and make it impossible for Kane to ever try this again.

Hes sly, quiet, composed and artistic. He never loses his cool. His gambits are truly beaut and he even goes out a badass, saving one of his angels and sending his nemesis into flood waters at the (possible) cost of his life.

'Bastard ?

Okay Eric isnt actually a straight good guy. This agency is just to keep himself well off in monetary terms not for the greater good. He can also do some ruthless moves like hypnotising christine and Trilby as part of his plan to beat Caglistro or the whole burning a guy (an Asshole Victim but still) to death as a signal. Plus him ruining Kane wasnt becuase of the deadly war thing but because he was going to take something he cared about away from him. But hes also polite and reserved. Genunily does love Christine and even sends his regards when she gets married to someone else without hurt feelings. He loves and cares for his angels and will step in when their in danger. he earns the respects of countless characters to the point they end up helping him in his final dance. He genunily cares for Adler and knew shed be miserable with her husband so lied about something happening with him as he knew it would be the only way for her to move on. Hes a more a neutral character but one with a ton of class and style mixed with protectivness and ruthlessness .

Conclusion?

Solid keep imo.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#19202: May 14th 2020 at 7:44:38 AM

[tup] Phantom.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19203: May 14th 2020 at 8:03:06 AM

Oh for a quote. What about this from Grand order moriarty.

"My name is James Moriarty! I am both a professor, and the head of an evil organization! Fwahahahaha! No need to worry. If you leave everything to me, taking over the world once or twice will be child's play!"

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19204: May 14th 2020 at 8:05:51 AM

Yes to Eric and I like the quote Mir! Description and we're good!

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#19205: May 14th 2020 at 8:07:53 AM

Easy [tup] for Eric.

Edited by jjjj2 on May 14th 2020 at 3:32:04 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#19206: May 14th 2020 at 8:08:18 AM

Yes to the Phantom.

Anyways I cut this from The Favourite.

  • Magnificent Bitch: The film is about Abigail and Sarah essentially trying to outfox one-another with magnificent bitchiness. Although Abigail ultimately triumphs, both elevate it to the level of a fine art.

I have never seen the movie so I can't comment on if one of them counts. But I am pretty sure that the entry was unapproved by the thread.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19208: May 14th 2020 at 8:13:57 AM

Probably worth a look. Generally in a vs situation only one really shines but occasionally you’ll get a case like Blade of the Immortal, The Boys or FLCL Progressive where both halves of the schemers compete well enough they come out strongly enough by endgame they can make it.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#19209: May 14th 2020 at 8:47:31 AM

[tup] to Erik and the Fate quote

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#19211: May 14th 2020 at 9:32:55 AM

Hey, I'm done with exams and have nothing to do over the summer! I should do an EP soon. But first, [tup] Phantom.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#19212: May 14th 2020 at 9:33:10 AM

@43:

1) You're missing Shiro Kotomine on the Nasuverse page.

2) Need a description?

"Kinoko Nasu and Type-Moon have written a litany of different kinds of villains. Throughout works that discuss humanity, their history, and their significance, these characters have stood out as the most magnificent."

I'll be doing my best to see what the other, lesser works of the Nasuverse have. I'm still on Mahoyo in particular.

Edited by erazor0707 on May 14th 2020 at 12:34:27 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19214: May 14th 2020 at 10:12:53 AM

Erazor, Thank you, I like the description if you wanna put it in and link the pages and MB. You can put Shiro in when you do so or I’ll do it after I eat.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19216: May 14th 2020 at 1:07:20 PM

Also now that Nasu is its own page I'm open to flipping it to release order if people would like.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#19217: May 14th 2020 at 1:57:10 PM

I mean, I'd keep it chronological, but that's just my opinion.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19220: May 14th 2020 at 4:16:52 PM

Anyone here watched Ninjago?

Their are a couple of potentials I was thinking of doing but waNted a second opinion on ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19221: May 14th 2020 at 5:11:11 PM

Haven’t but I’ll hear you.

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#19222: May 14th 2020 at 5:59:24 PM

(Wow, we’ve lost another CM crossover. Why am I not surprised?)

JULY 2021 EDIT: Wow, I had no shame a year ago.

Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Jul 14th 2021 at 12:40:16 PM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#19223: May 14th 2020 at 6:03:31 PM

That shouldn't be the main priority.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#19224: May 14th 2020 at 6:18:29 PM

Alright, this comment coming up every damn time a crossover (seemingly everyone's new favourite obsession) gets chopped is frankly getting agrivating. I tire of the bemoaning over crossovers being cut... many were terrible examples of one trope of the other and cleaning the lists should entail getting rid of bad examples. Not only are these statements annoying to have to see repeated ad nauseam every time one gets the ax but it gives a bad indication as to how one is voting when an ostensible "crossover" gets proposed. Go by the merits of the character and the proposal, if consensus is they don't count or don't measure up on re-evaluation, too bad, they don't count by our standards. We're not personally going to agree on every choice made, the best thing to do is accept it and move on.

Edited by 43110 on May 14th 2020 at 9:19:16 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#19225: May 14th 2020 at 6:21:41 PM

Agreed. Let's just focus on merits and not comment on 'crossover' stuff.


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