During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
From YMMV Lincoln Rhyme:
- Magnificent Bastard: Every villain is this to some extent, but the Coffin Dancer, the Conjurer, 522, and the Watchmaker are the most notable examples.
- The Coffin Dancer disguises himself as a bum and spends weeks peddling drugs on the streets to establish himself, coasts under the radar of suspicion by hiring another Professional Killer — Stephen Kall — to go after the targets he himself was hired for, sets up a "coincidental" meeting with Kall to follow and monitor him as the police assume him to be the Coffin Dancer, and finally kills him under circumstances that cause the police to assume he was just another victim, all so he can get himself sent to a safe house with his targets.
- The Conjurer disguises himself as his deceased mentor so expertly that Rhyme only realizes he isn't the same man at the end, sets up a Double Subversion to trick police away from his revenge plot by leaving evidence that said plot was the distraction from his job as a Professional Killer, and thinks far enough ahead to wear undetectable makeup and prosthetics allowing him to fake being shot in the head during a struggle with his arresting officer.
- The Watchmaker is the reigning champion of this trope, to a divisive degree — The Cold Moon, where his grand scheme only reveals him as the villain at the climax, is barely scraping the iceberg. In The Burning Wire, he manages to set up a grand ruse to trick Rhyme and the police into thinking he was carrying out a hit in Mexico City, then makes his way to New York undetected and carries out a series of complex electricity-based attacks while planting evidence pointing first at deceased electrician Raymond Galt and then at the owners of the electricity company, and then distracts everyone with a purported attack on a convention center while heading to Rhyme's house to kill him. Think that's insane? In The Skin Collector, he sets himself up to be smuggled some tetrodotoxin while in jail, fakes his own death with it, and reveals that he laid the groundwork for Billy Haven's schemes as one giant distraction while he disguises himself as his own lawyer in such a way that he fools Ron Pulaski on multiple occasions, ultimately slipping through Rhyme's grasp yet again just as people start to realize he might not be dead.
I know nothing about any of these characters but they weren't voted up here; last activity on the page appears to have been in 2016.
Another Disney example, this time from The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Needless to say, the entry points out why it's not an example:
- Magnificent Bastard: For all his hatefulness, Frollo has one moment of being this when he tricks Quasimodo into thinking that he knows where the Court of Miracles is located, causing Quasimodo and Phoebus to go there in order to warn the gypsies, thus leading Frollo straight to them.
Frollo is definitely too much of a bastard to count. He's a genocidal racist, an abusive caretaker of Quasimodo (who he tried to kill as a baby simply because he was ugly), and the closest thing Disney's ever had to a sexual assaulter. Frollo's a great villain, but he's also one of Disney's vilest. I think he's an easy cut. Thoughts?
I would agree with Taika going up. I now nothing on Lincoln Rhyme, but I also agree Frollo ought be cut post haste.
Now, my next Black Lagoon post...Eda.
Who is Eda?
Eda is...supposedly a nun who works at the so-called Church of Violence, or the Rip-off Church...actually a gun-running and smuggling operation with a church theme. Eda is also Revy's best friend...for a given value of friend, since most of their relationship consists of them lobbing profanity-laden insults at one another. Eda also loves casting off the habit for a very skimpy outfit and hitting on Rock, much to Revy's consternation.
Now, in the Greenback Jane arc, Janet Bhai, a counterfeiter is on the run with a ton of cash and prints for her forged dollar bills. Eda proceeds to string her along, rip her off and set her up with a safe house....that is perfectly set up to be invaded by the contract killers hunting her...and Eda also set the room up with instructions on how to flee right to Eda and Revy so Eda can extort her for more money to gain her protection. According to Eda, the room's worked 'the last four times out of seven' when Revy points out "seems like ya gathered all the ifs in the world for this stupid plan."
Now, long and short? Revy and Eva proceed to take out all of the killers, leaving the one who hired them, Russell the Cowboy, who works for the guy Jane is fleeing from. Eda defeats him in a gunfight, but then...Russell realizes he's seen Eda before. Eda tells him about six times to just shut up and drop it, but Russell won't stop until he recalls it...and Eda calmly informs her her true hometown is "Langely. Virginia," IE" She's CIA, just before she executes Russell...
It turns out...Eda? Between her CIA connections, the Church of Violence's smuggling network? She might be the closest thing Roanpur has to an actual ruler from the shadows. She represents the US's interests and communicates with even Chang over the phone where she delivers him orders in no uncertain terms. Her Badass Boast to him is one for the ages
Eda then proceeds to direct things in the arc where a vengeful Roberta goes after US special forces in Roanpur, nearly setting the city ablaze. She calmly sets things up and sends Roberta after the special forces to finish things there, one way or another and protect her interests. The only one who ever suspects anything is up? Rock himself, who expresses those concerns to Eda. Eda calmly informs him to drop this line of inquiry since it's "a bad idea to dive down into the depths where the leviathan waits"...Eda ends up getting Roberta removed from Roanpur, the order restored, Chang still under her thumb and nobody the wiser to her whatsoever....that's where it's remained since...well, except for the time she does Rock a little favor by bashing a sniper in the face with a baseball bat while she blasts 'Wild Thing' off her CD player, which is Eda just being awesome, but I digress.
Is she charismatic? Charming? A planner?
So, Eda is...foul-mouthed, greedy, temperamental,flirty and kind of whacky...and then the end of Greenback Jane hits and it becomes frighteningly clear that what we see of Eda is mostly a front. She can be very cold, professional and calm when she's in her real persona. Nevertheless, Eda is crazy likable via her Vitriolic Best Buds relationship with Revy and she's got an unmistakable charm to her. Her icy dismissal of Chang would be a Kick the Dog except...y'know, Chang is a ruthless crime lord who for all his friendliness is a total scumbag, so it comes off as Eda giving him just desserts more than being cruel.
As for planning? I can't really stress this enough...Eda is a goddamn master. She basically rules Roanpur, which is no mean feat, is capable of reorganizing the pieces however she wishes and pulls off some hilariously awesome (if morally bankrupt) schemesin the Greenback Jane arc ("come on, Revy! That room's worked the last four times out of seven!"
Is she a bastard? Too much?
Well...Eda isn't as violent as Revy, but she's damn quick on the trigger finger. She's very belligerent, not into helping people, and she's fully willing to manipulate and murder if the day calls for it. And the way she extorts poor Jane is plain old evil genius. She also executes the helpless Russell....being fair, she gave him like seven chances to live by just shutting the fuck up about having seen her before as a CIA agent. From what we also know, Eda is deeply loyal to the US, and while it can be hard to tell what's genuine with Eda sometimes? She does seem to really like and care for Rock and Revy. A lot of her vices seem to be an act she puts on while at the Ripoff Church, so there's that.
Conclusion?
I'd go with an easy keep for Eda.
edited 22nd Jun '18 7:37:10 PM by Lightysnake
And now, my last Magnificent Bastard from Black Lagoon...let's talk our protagonist who has slowly slipped into darkness....Rock himself.
Who is Rock?
Rokuro "Rock" Okajima, a Japanese salaryman abducted by the Lagoon Company and ended up hired on their crew...he's also the Morality Pet to the vicious Revy (with whom he shares an incredible amount of romantic tension with), and...in a very odd twist? Rock has become possibly the most dangerous man in Roanpur by sheer virtue of everyone important in the city liking or respecting him.
So...we first get a hint of Rock's rather fertile and dangerous mind in the early episodes. When he's abducted by Lagoon, they basically pretty well, even letting him come ashore for some drinks at their favorite bar with them, where he and Revy enter into a heated drinking contest. Rock's old bosses, seeking to deny a scandal, send a mercenary company to kill Rock and the company and retrieve the disc Rock is holding....and they had an anti-tank aircraft. Rock is the one to form a plan: to lure the aircraft near a wrecked ship, charge the ship, launch into the air and fire a torpedo at it. Plan goes off without a hitch, the merc leader hit in the face with a torpedo as Rock victoriously flips him off and shouts "You got FUCKED!"
So begins Rock's life in Roanpur...now, Rock is functionally the Token Good Teammate of the Lagoon...most of the time. Now, Rock takes a bit to grow into the roll, his idealism clashing with Revy's more vicious cynicism.....however, Rock proves himself a shrewd negotiator, at one point diffusing a situation at the Ripoff Church when things get very tense. Things change badly for Rock in Fujiyama Gangster Paradise where he tries to save Yukio Washimine...he desperately tries to convince Balalaika to spare Yukio and leave the Washimine group, which nearly gets him and Revy killed...however, Rock manages to amuse Balalaika to the point where she not only spares him, she goes along with his suggestion. Sadly, things end poorly for Yukio and Rock is forced to watch her suicide.
Rock then shines in the Baile de la Muerta arc...in fact, when an enraged Roberta comes to Roanpur hunting down US special forces? Rock is the one to handle things to save Roanpur itself. He gives Garcia, Roberta's young master, the idea to confront Roberta with blanks after 'shooting' Caxton, the US commander, with another blank.....Rock knows how they'll react, sets things up...and Roberta's wrath ends up diffused, even with Garcia injured. Garcia's other battle maid Fabiola, however, is absolutely furious at Rock for using the others as pawns and risking Garcia's life...she shoots him with a blank and tells him to "keep dancing your waltz with the dead in this foul city."
In the current arc? Yeah, he's still setting things up well, arranging for the safety of the Chinese Liberation Army hacker Feng after Jane screws her over and dealing with thigns in his usual skilled way by calling in the proper favors, anticipating other moves and moving agains them first...
Is he charming? Charismatic? A good planner?
Rock is...actually a n excellent planner from the start with a natural inclination toward criminal activity and surprisingly daring plans. The thing about rock as well, is he's naturally likable and enjoyable to be around. He's clearly won Revy over, and just about everyone who meets him and gets to know him in Roanpur genuinely likes him. Balalaika is fascinated by, amused by and seems to have a genuine fondness for Rock. Eda seems to quite like him, and Chang does as well. When Rock steps up, he's an excellent negotiator by sheer virtue of his intelligence, charm and personality. It's mainly a result of Character Development, I'd argue, since he starts as a wimp growing into a genuinely skilled underworld player.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
At the series start, Rock is an idealist, who holds to his morals to the point that Revy thinks he's an idiot. He tries to make sure things end non-violently, he tries to save Yukio from the gangster leadership....unfortunately for Rock? As the series goes on, he definitely darkens internally. We see signs of it early on, but Rock has grown more and more villainous, refusing to help others that he would've once jumped at to assist and coldly manipulating others to achieve his goals. Surprisingly? Revy herself is less than pleased at this turn, as it's implied and outright said by Balalaika that deep down Revy wishes for a more normal life, when all she knows how to do is kill....but when you get down to it, he does admit that good deeds are....basically a hobby.
That said...Rock's desire to help others is genuine. He's willing to use dark and ignoble means to achieve noble ends and believes it justifies it. He's capable of empathy and humanity, and for his coldness in manipulating Garcia, he did achieve the right end. It's worth noting he has two major moments of standards: he genuinely bonds with the child assassin Gretel, wanting to save her at the end (and he's revolted when she takes his kindness the wrong way and propositions him for sex)...and when he sees that Chang's affable front is only that, Rock snaps and calls him a piece of shit (prompting Chang to laugh hysterically at the audacity there)...
And obviously, Rock has real care for the Lagoon crew. Dutch is an employer, but also a friend. Benny and him are at least friendly...and Rock has a deep, deep, bizarre, strange and weird bond with Revy....it's not a stretch to say they are the two most important people in the world to one another at this point.
Conclusion?
I'd say Rock has grown into the role.
Light Frollo’s entry on fire
to Rock a prominent example of a Guile Hero turning into a Magnificent Bastard.
Notheless Rock is indeed the Magnificent Bastard Brad Swalie’s other character Light could never be!
Any reason Chang doesn’t qualify?
edited 23rd Jun '18 3:21:03 AM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffHmmmm Rock is kind of an interesting case here... He spents most of his time as a Guile hero however due to character development, he then started to become more extreme on his methods... Think I'll go with a yea
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."I'm cool with Rock going up...with the caveat that if the series' ever ends we may need to check back in with him. Way the story is going I figure he's either a) going to end up very bad by the end, or b) pull himself out of the spiral and regain his humanity. If it's the last one, he might end up a better fit for Guile Hero again than this.
That's fair. Of course, that's 'if' the manga ever finishes.
As for Chang...I'd like to qualify him, but I think a major blow to him is that he ends up largely as Eda's pawn and when she delivers him a major "Reason You Suck" Speech ending by calling him nothing but a two-bit thug, all he can do is slam the phone down and storm off.
Next proposal:
What's the Work?
The Witcher is a dark fantasy book series made into a smash hit game trilogy by CD Projekt Red....set in a dark world based off medieval Poland, the world...sucks. Petty kings wage war endlessly, evil elves from other worlds ride to kidnap and destroy entire populations and monsters infest the world. In order to deal with this issue...sorcerers and alchemists created the Witchers. Young boys trained from childhood, put through horrific tests and subject to mutations that leave them superpowered...unfortunately, humans gonna human, and eventually, people rose up against the Witcher schools and destroyed them out of prejudice. The only surviving Witchers were those away at the time. The remaining Witchers make their living as they will, especially Geralt of Rivia, the White Wolf, a veteran Witcher who ends up with world-shaking events many times. In Witcher 2: Assassin of Kings? Someone is murdering kings in the north and throwing the north into chaos. And Geralt learns the culprit is someone he knows from his past. Enter...Letho of Gulet.
Who is Letho?
Letho is a hulking, brutish thug of a Witcher, a scarred brute with a rough voice...he is also a Witcher of the Viper School who has seen his brethren shunned, spit on, destroyed and hunted. Now, no good deed ever goes unpunished; Letho once protected Geralt's lover, the sorceress Yennefer, resulting in him and his comrades hunted down and captured by the powerful empire of Nilfgaard. But the Emperor offered Letho a deal...sow some chaos, and Letho would gain a land all of his own to reestablish the Viper School. A home for Witchers, to protect them from prejudice.
Letho proceeds to infiltrate the northern kingdoms, eliminating those in his way. He soon becomes known as the Kingslayer, assassinating multiple rulers across the northern kingdoms via infiltrating their courts and getting close enough to finish them off. In the start of Witcher 2, Geralt is in the service of King Foltest of Temeria. Letho appears as a beggar, seeming harmless...until he springs into action and cuts down the king, escaping and leaving Geralt to take the blame. Letho also allies with the elven terrorist cells the Scoia'tiel, uses them as cover and calmly betrays them the second they outlive their usefulness. Ltho proceeds to use his assassination campaign to throw the north into utter chaos, letting them fall among themselves so that Nilfgaard can sweep in.
After basically bringing down the northern kingdoms, things go to a head when a bunch of people's own plots all catch up at once. Letho ends up protecting Geralt's friend and lover Triss from the chaos as he and Geralt share a drink together...the player is given the option of fighting and killing Letho or letting him go, after learning Letho's goals were never anything more than wanting to protect the other Witchers...if the PC allows Letho to walk away, he returns in game 3. Unfortunately, Nilfgaard hs made him a hunted man and Letho is staying a step ahead of their hunters, opting to fake his death in the end. Geralt can assist and save him and if he does, Letho ends up going to Geralt's home of Kaer Morhen, th training ground of Geralt's Wolf School to assist Geralt in fighting the Wild Hunt, the aforementioned genocidal elves...once this is done, Letho tells Geralt he's making for the mountains, and the two part with Letho never seen again.
Is he charming? Charismatic? A good planner?
Ok, so for a guy who looks like a stupid, scarred brute? Yes. Letho is very personable and friendly when you get a chance to speak with him one on one. He's charismatic, persuasive and dedicated to other Witchers. Interestingly? Letho knows he looks like Dumb Muscle...and he uses it to his advantage. He plays dumb so people underestimate him, plays up his thuggish exterior, all while being incredibly intelligent and insightful. As for planning? He uses a series of targeted assassination campaigns to basically cripple the northern kingdoms. He can plan like a mother...now, the big issue is at the end? Nilfgaard does betray him. To Letho's credit though? He is one Witcher against the most powerful empire in the world, and he actuallymanages to keep ahead of them. His plan to fake his death is a good one, but if Geralt doesn't interfere, the soldiers will kill him for real. Still, I think this is a minor drop compare to Letho's genuinely incredibly achievements.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Letho is not a good person. He murders and betrays people when he sees fit, murdering a monk to take his identity at one point. He kills kings to cause massive wars to allow Nilfgaard to sweep in and completely dominate the world. This is evil, flat out.
That said...Letho has a lot of good qualities. He doesn't want to fight Geralt because he considers Geralt a friend for saving his life when they were young Witchers, and pointedly spares him in their first fight because he owes him. He's only ever in that mess with Nilfgaard because he saved Yennefer from the Wild Hunt out of nothing but common decency. And he genuinely, truly cares for his men and fellow Witchers. All he ever wants is to establish a homeland where they can be safe, because people really, really do treat Witchers terribly and Letho's sick of it.And if Geralt helps him, he selflessly risks his life to fight the Wild Hunt before bidding Geralt a friendly farewell. And at the end of game 2, Letho saves Triss, shares friendly drinks with Geralt and makes it clear he respects him greatly and doesn't want to fight him.
Conclusion?
Letho is an interesting case. It's true that Nilfgaard does backstab him, but the scope of his plans, his exceptional charisma and audacity, and his ultimate complexity as a villain? I have to go with yes, and a fantastic villain he is.
Letho
So what happened with dcau darkseid. That convo just fizzled away. He got enough votes, so shouldn't OE write him up.
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Sorry about that. I'll tone it down. I just wanted to make sure no one forgot he was approved.
edited 23rd Jun '18 10:15:05 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Yes to Lehto and for Black Lagoon manga... iirc where I was on commenting spree on Google... there could be some hiatuses regarding the manga but I'm not sure.
write-up for taiki will come out soon as I felt confused on how to sum up his crimes and his magnificence a bit. Probably next morning I'll write him up
edited 23rd Jun '18 9:45:20 AM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Letho of Gulet
Eda
Abstain on Rock. I want to know for how much time the series had kept him as ruthless and honestly?
This thread: Let's not use MB as a Badge of Honor!!
This thread too: Using MB as a Badge of Honor.
We can be very weird
edited 23rd Jun '18 10:35:49 AM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country

Now since Thrawn and Balalaika is an easiest keep for this trope...I've got a divisive candidate needless to say...I've been stalling this example for too long and I'm unsure if he qualifies or not given that he has several mitigating factors that probably prevent him on being in this trope. But nevertheless...He deserve a real discussion.
What's the Work
Dark Rose Valkyrie is a game that tells us a story about some people getting affected by a virus called Chimera Virus due to a meteorite called Black Garnet that crashed into planet Earth around 1818 in the Alternate Universe of Japan. Needless to say, both animals and humans can ended up being infected by the virus itself and for those who are infected, they could become a mindless creatures that could destroy humanity.
112 years later, A novice captain called Asahi Shiramine joins the newly formed Valkyrie Force who are essentially the part of ACID unit (Anti-Chimera Intercept Division) so that they can stop the Chimera virus and then destroy those who got infected. The Force itself was founded by it's director, Taiki Shinohara...Needless to say that despite the system itself was mostly tasked to destroy the Chimeras...Valkyrie Force is actually not what it seems to be and Taiki hides a dark secret from the force members until the end part of the game...
Who is He/What Has He Done
So our candidate in question here is Taiki Shinohara...He is actually a director of a covert military agency known as ACID and is also the one who found Valkyrie Force. He first appeared in person when he sent the force to save Asahi from the roaming Chimeras in the park. And when Asahi is brought to the headquarters, he then tells him about the history regarding the Chimera Virus and then appoints him as a new captain of the Valkyrie Force.
And later at night, he also told Asahi about the experimental Operation System that was known as the Valkyrie System and tells that the number who used this system is pretty much limited and then there's the fact that the number of the people who can use this OS is limited and Asahi is one of the chosen ones that could operate this system pretty well along with his own squads. He also tells Asahi that one of the Operation System's side effects includes a split personality, which is one of the symptoms of the virus, and warns that there will be a day when Asahi must discern between the two.
In the middle chapter...When Asahi finds the traitor in the Valkyrie Force, Taiki is informed of the incident. He is both surprised and concerned, but tells him that they must remove all suspicion before the investigation can be completed. Asahi later asks Taiki about the Valkyrie System so he can continue his investigation. Taiki is surprised by the request but helps gather as much information as possible for him.
In the chapter when the Valkyrie Force tries to defeat one of the Quo Vadis—an organization who supports human evolving into chimera—top members...Cielo and tried to bring him into the custody...Taiki then later steps in and then kills Cielo with a gunshot. And he felt "regret and remorse" after he kills him given that he was the best friend of him in the past and as a result, he was questioned by the Minister of Defense because Cielo was one of the heirs of the three conglomerates in the game. Needless to say...Taiki's true nature is revealed when the Valkyrie Force found out about the female chimera that could reproduced called "Eve"...
After "Eve" is revealed...Taiki breaks out and meets up with most of the Valkyrie Force members and the revealed "Eve" in the military base. In there, he almost shot Asahi but missed due to Asahi's beginners luck much to Taiki's annoyance. And he also revealed about the truth regarding Valkyrie Force and Valkyrie System in general, It was revealed that Quo Vadis was working with military together so that they could found the real "Eve" and Taiki made that happen. And not only that, it was also revealed that he was a male Chimera that is capable of reproducing. He also reveals the motives on why he kills Cielo: It's because he grown too arrogant and went berserk that he ended up endangering Taiki's plans. After this, Taiki then sents one of his chimeras to attack the Valkyrie Force and then assaults the Valkyrie Force HQ and needless to say, most of the forces are wiped out due to him bringing some of the chimeras.
Needless to say, after the Valkyrie Force returned to HQ...It was revealed that the Minister of Defense was in a sorry state after saw Taiki betrayed him. And after this, one of the Valkyrie Force members, Naoyuki Kazami and Kana Hazuki found out about the documentation regarding Taiki and told Asahi that they found some interesting things regarding him...And it was revealed that Taiki was a clone of one of the early researchers of Chimera Virus, Kenichi Shinohara and while Kenichi himself proposed the Japanese seclusion from the outside world to protect his country, he has another agenda...Creating a secret project called "Project Messiah", which is essentially creating Chimeras that is capable of reproducing.
After the research, Asahi and the rest of the force members then went to the Kenichi's clone research facility, the Kasumi Biological Research Lab...He is surprised that they managed to find the facility, and more surprised by how Asahi knew that he is a clone of Kenichi. He then tells about Kenichi's past, and how anger and despair had played a role in the Chimera pandemic. He claims that he does not have anything to do with the chimera pandemic and he then also states that the first "Eve" did not yield any results, and demands Asahi to hand over the remaining candidates. Asahi flatly refuses, so he prepares to fight him as he is the largest obstacle in his way.
After he got defeated and reverts back into the human form, he attempts to finish off Asahi but finds out that he has reached his limit and is starting to disappear and claims that he was defeated by someone that looks like Abel. Before vanishing completely, he allows Asahi to take the research notes from the facility. In the true ending of the game, it is also implied that he gives Asahi the recipe for the Chimera medicine, as the first "Eve" eventually returns to normal.
Is He Charming,Charismatic,Thinks on His Feet?
Definitely! Taiki is pretty much charming and charismatic towards the guys who work for him and pretends to be a nice and decent person in front of them to conceal his true colors. One instances in one of the Valkyrie Force members, Ai Yakumo, past years...Taiki loves to brought her into the same cafe and iirc he was also have a decent relationship with her and her sister, Youko Yakumo, even if he ended up rejected her later on after she saved her younger sister from accident but that's because she isn't capable to reproduce anymore and Taiki needs someone who could reproduce in order to continue the life-cycle of the Chimeras.
Also, for the competition, he easily outstrips anyone. As he is able to manipulate the military, the country and the time itself. So no comment on that. But the problem that I have is in the mitigating factor section...
Is He a Bastard? Too Much?/Mitigating Factors
Alright, so Taiki...Is pretty much a bastard once his true colors are shown and almost behind all the bad things that happen in the game. And there are some problems with him qualifying as one thanks to this. And here are the things that will probably make you hesitate a little bit to vote for Taiki:
1.There's this one scene where Taiki infiltrates the Anti Chimera HQ and wiped out the 80% of the people in there. And while the invasion was offscreen...It was recounted pretty well by Taiki's second in command in ACID, Miyako Osatani....And she said things like this towards Taiki and probably this could made you hesitant a bit to vote for him:
"Not long after you went after Sol, the Director brought an army. He mowed down everyone who stood in his way. No mercy. No compassion. He just had...This awful smile, this awful smile and he was so delighted in the slaughter."
2.He has a bit of a fantastic racism towards the humans. And he said things like this:
"I am the choosen one, I have no need to empathize with emotions of inferior creatures. Eve and I are of a different breed. We are valuable resources born of a one in a billion chance. That was why...I have been searching for so long."
3. He's a clone that carry on the dreams and obsession of his master, Kenichi Shinohara...So I'm not sure if his moral agency could be impaired or not even if he was a clone.
But needless to say, even with that mitigating factors...Taiki still has a charm from him. Such as despite he sees Cielo ended up betrayed him and have no choice to kill him, he still thankful towards him and think that he did a great job for him because of the fact that he supports his ideals. And his fantastic racism had a bit of an excuse...I mean, he's actually a clone from someone whose research got discriminated by some people in the other country because they were immigrants and that ended up twisting his heart so it's a little bit understandable....And lastly, after he got defeated, he still felt sympathy towards his former master and he accepts his defeat by giving Asahi the research documents for the Chimera virus and he finally accepts his own death sooooo yeah....I'm a bit torn on this one.
Final Verdict
Taiki's a harder case...Even more so than HER from Ruiner due to those mitigating factors. But I don't know if his redeeming traits could counter his glaring mitigating factors so it's up to you guys to decide.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."