During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I disagree that it's not a Villainous Breakdown, but it's a very minor one. The intonation I'm hearing seems a little panicked. I do agree though she only really truly starts losing it after the nanites are injected.
Viki.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Viki.
Say, does anyone have Clive Dove from Professor Layton reserved? I know Elfen did before leaving- and I can do Clive. So, is that okay if I EP him?
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Alright, so this is the first in a series of PL EPs I will do, since this series has quite a bit.
What's the work?
Professor Layton and the Unwound Future is the third game in the Layton series. In it, Prime Minister Bill Hawks disappears during a time machine presentation. Layton, i the process of trying to solve the mystery, winds up in a future London- one where he is a mob boss ruling the city as a dictator. Layton and Luke must team up with Future Luke to get back to their world.
Or so it seems. And Future Luke cannot be trusted...
Who is Klaus Albatross/Clive Dove? What does he do?
Clive was a kid who lost his parents to a botched time machine demonstration. Dimitri Allen and Bill Hawks worked together to produce one, but the presentation was delayed due to the thing being unsafe. Hawks went ahead anyway because he was promised money for the whole thing, and as a result caused an explosion. Instead of owning up to this, he took the money anyway and used it to become Prime Minister.
Clive, blaming both Dimitri and Hawks for his parents' deaths, sought revenge. Adopted by rich lady Constance Dove, Clive waited until he aquired her inheritance after her death. Manipulating Dimitri with his love for Claire (who died in the explosion), Clive and Dimitri formed The Family, a mob, and they built an entire city underground with the money and kidnapped a whole bunch of people, while Clive secretly having a mobile fortress built. Clive would then send letters to Londoners claiming to be from the future and show them his 'time machine' (actually just an elevator taking them to the underground city), and trick them into thinking they were trapped in the future. He would use this ruse to trick London's best scientists into making a time machine themselves in hopes of escaping, ensuring Dimitri's compliance (as he wanted to make a time machine to save Claire)- but what he really had them working on was the mobile fortress.
When Professor Layton and Luke arrived, Clive tricked them into thinking that they were in a Future London, and disguised himself as Future Luke and Dimitri as Future Layton to keep up the illusion. He travels with them all and keeps up the act of being an ally all the way through, buying time so the fortress can be complete.
Of course, Layton, being the genius he is, eventually sees through it and exposes Clive in a Summation Gathering. Clive just laughs because he already completed the fortress- so he unleashes it to destroy London, with Bill Hawks trapped inside, and kidnaps Flora to let her live or something. Layton and friends manage to destroy the machine, after which Clive starts freaking out, but he is saved by a time-displaced Claire. He apologizes for everything he has done and admits that, on some level, he wanted Layton to stop him. He is then arrested.
Magnificent?
He plays everyone in his revenge plan for over ten years. Said plan is more than a little over the top, but it works. He is also very nice to Layton, Luke, and Flora pre-reveal; it's implied he kidnapped Flora becuase he took such a liking to her that he wanted to spare her form the destruction- and almost never loses his cool- while he does have a small Villainous Breakdown here he proclaims that it 'won't end this way', he calms down when saved in time to apologize for everything.
Bastard?
Manipulator, mob boss, kidnapper, and tries to destroy London, getting several buildings leveled in the process and possibly killing many innocents (though I don't remember any bodies being shown- this is an E10+-rated game, after all). Yet his motive does make him sympathetic, and he apologizes for his evil actions, musing that the reason he led Layton straight to his lair is because he, deep down, wanted the Professor to stop him, for he knew he could not stop himself or the hatred consuming him on his own. And when defeated, he accepts his punishment and is carried to jail with no resistance from him.
Verdict?
I say sure. Stay tuned for Descole and Bronev, and maybe some more.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.I should add the addendum to Clive that this is such a stretch, I'm willing to hear if anyone thinks it goes so far into ridiculousness putting him up is abusing the fictional definition of "smart": we said no to Lelouch and I know MCU!Thanos had some pretty silly logic involved but this is something else.
I've always felt Lelouch doesn't count because he doesn't handle defeat well. I do feel we have approved people who when you analyze the plans they get exposed by Fridge Logic, like Zemo from Captain America: Civil War. Let's look at another non-keeper, Frank Underwood. As Ravok eloquently pointed out at the beginning of the thread, when the chips are down Frank is nothing more than a vile bully. However I have read that another point against him you could make is that it's not so much that Frank is so smart, but that his enemies are so dumb. Having said that if Frank weren't a vile bully I probably would approve him, because that only becomes apparent from a fridge logic perspective. As such I am giving a very weak
Clive.
There seems to be a misplaced pothole on an Alternative Character Interpretation entry on YMMV.Santa Claus Conquers The Martians. Tackle it how you must.
Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
Karl. Never played Extella, so this one's a bit interesting. Good find.
VIKI... I can give a slight "yea." She seems a bit blue-and-orange-y for me given the nature of the film, but her talks with both Spooner and Sonny are enough.
I'll personally abstain on Clive.
Also, polling the thread. Do you guys want an EP on Kiristugu Emiya and let the chips fall where they may?
Edited by erazor0707 on May 7th 2020 at 5:11:58 AM
to Clive and Icky Vicky
(I wonder if The Fairly OddParents! has any potential keeps).
Now then here's my write-up for The Owl:
- Attack on Titan:
- Erwin Smith, commander of the Survey Corps, is a brilliant strategist who formed the infamous formation to use against Titans, cutting down on casualties immensely. From a young age, Erwin was known as a genius who used and manipulated those around him, sacrificing countless lives for the benefit of humanity. Recruiting humanity's strongest warrior, Levi Ackerman and winning his loyalty, Erwin uses his own troops as bait to draw out hypothetical Titan shifters, utilizing other Titans as weapons against them. When arrested, Erwin even helps to come up with a plan to overthrow the corrupt monarchy and install his subordinate Historia on the throne, driven by a desire to prove humanity shall not fall easily in his war against the Titans.
- Eren Kruger is the infamous spy, The Owl, and the founder and leader of the Eldian Restorationists, an group of Eldian patriots dedicated to opposing Marley and restore Eldia as a world power. To help the Restorationists, Kruger infiltrates Marley's Public Security Authorities and passes on the information onto his comrades allowing them to remain one step ahead, while also recruit many oppressed Eldians to his cause. To make sure that his cover remains intact however, he had to torture and kill many of his own Eldian brethren, even forcibly turning them into Titans and sending them to Paradis Island; One example includes Dina Fritz while having her husband, Grisha Yeager, watch. Afterwards, Kruger tosses Sergeant Major Gross off a wall before the latter could kill Grisha allowing Gross to be eaten by a Titan, before using the powers of the Attack Titan to kill off the rest of Gross's men. He then reveals his role to Grisha before sending him to Paradis Island, while giving him the Attack Titan's powers instructing Grisha to pass it on to his child should he start a family there.
Edited by G-Editor on May 6th 2020 at 11:27:51 PM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffOne last thing I would like to bring up on watts?
While arguments can be made in regards to his motives for joining Salems faction, his motivation for the attacks on Mantle are, by all indication just to help with Salems plans. He was helping with the other attacks as well having created the black queen virus, and had no personal connection to any of the other kingdoms. Salem says how there goal "was never victory, it was merely to set the stage, for me". Were told in volume 6 the reason he and Tyrian were going out to atlas was because they needed to keep Ironwood from coming to his senses and getting Vacuo for help, and once the Mantle plan is foiled he switches Gears to just stopping them from Launching Amity tower.
All that is the reason I don't read his actions as "wanting to destroy a city out of spite"
Also
to Vicky.
And if someone did want to EP Kiritsugu, is there any chance I could help out?
Edited by Kylotrope on May 7th 2020 at 12:39:24 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around hereI get where J is coming from but the only thing I'd like to really add to my concern is that while I'm fine with silly plots—both Thanos and Zemo are good examples there—I also don't want to completely ignore Fridge Logic if it's to the point of absurdity. I couldn't, for example, upvote someone who seems to cause Bond Villain Stupidity in everyone around them and they suddenly start dropping their guns to try and get close to punch the character, that's an issue I just can't ignore. The Illusionist was rife with faults but Eisenheim was at least alone against the the entirety of the prince's forces and didn't use his (basically) magic in all of his tricks, with a good number including bribery, allegiances and verbal persuasion. He's close but I think he comes out safe. One of the problems someone had with Cladwell from Urinetown was they felt it wasn't so much that he was smart as he was just the only one with a working brain. Personally I didn't see it to that extreme but I think it's something to consider and it's one of the many issues I've got with Iago... honestly, Klavice's point is giving me pause with Clive now.
Also G I'm not that far in the manga to know but how big is the Owl's role? He's kinda dwarfing Erwin right now.
Edited by 43110 on May 7th 2020 at 7:30:46 AM

VIKI.
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills