During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes. Yes it is.
This is not supposed to be cut anyone at random time. Especially if their not actually under discussion.
Btw hopefully in reading Villains Don't Date Heroes! and might have someone for you here soon.
Edited by miraculous on May 6th 2020 at 6:24:11 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Agreed... let them come up naturally, be sure there's new information/undeveloped points being brought up and focus on voting and coming up with new candidates: we aren't here to cannibalize each other's characters until none of us want to talk to each other again.
As I've mentioned to a few of you I'm gonna rewatch I, Robot and we'll see about VIKI... there's a reason I'm not sold on her Villainous Breakdown killing her chances. Will report back.
Edited by 43110 on May 6th 2020 at 9:24:19 AM
@43 What Villainous Breakdown? She keeps the same tone the whole time and is simply calling the breach on Sunny because he is too close to beating her.
I have a couple I think I can do without rewatches. I might do one tonight.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on May 6th 2020 at 6:47:44 AM
Draft for Ariel Eberhart. Will need assistance on potholes.
- "Plumed Serpent": Ariel Eberhart is the daughter of Fred Eberhart, a welder turned copper thief. When Ariel learns that Detctive Nick Burkhardt is a Grimm investigating her father's involvement in a homicide, she ambushes him when he follows her, tearing his shirt and answering his phone to trick his girlfriend Juliette into thinking he's cheating just to mess with them. The next night, Ariel kidnaps Juliette and brings her to her father's lair; her plan is to have Nick face her father in combat to save Juliette and give her father a chance at dying honorably in accordance with their culture. When Nick kills her father, Ariel assures her father he fought well and creates an explosion, faking her death and leaving for parts unknown.
Edited by k410ren on May 6th 2020 at 10:00:29 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsSo, we mentioned the other day that there are probably more Nasuverse keepers. Well, I'm not sure I have one, but I'm gonna propose him anyways. He seemed like he may have a chance.
The work? Fate/Extella Link is a pretty solid Musou set after the events of Fate/Extella: The Umbral Star, which has a story I won't even get into here. (This universe is complicated.) It's also one of the few Nasuverse entries I won't face Continuity Lock-Out on when proposing this candidate, because his storyline is pretty much exclusive to this game. Short version, it's like Fate but in a computer matrix. This particular one deals with no multi-faction war, with everyone instead pitted against the Big Bad Karl.
Who is Rex Magnus Karl? What does he do? (Note: The character's official Japanese name is Karl der Große, but I'm using the dub name out of convenience.)
Rex Magnus Karl is the true historical self of the game's hero Charlemagne. He is Affably Evil, a true believer in God, honorable, valorous, and has a plot to assimilate all of the Moon Cell (the game's setting) via Oraclization. (A process which brainwashes the victim to be subservient to Karl, but otherwise leaves their personality intact.) He is eloquent, intelligent, and genuinely kind, other than the whole brainwashing thing.
Karl sets out on his quest via Oraclizing and recruiting Servants, planning to Oraclize all of the Moon Cell and place it under his domain out of a genuine desire to bring them happiness. To this end, he builds a new Empire, successfully Oraclizing a massive number of powerful Servants offscreen (And also not pulling it off for Gilles de Rais, who thankfully for him joins him anyways.) Karl also manages to, once more offscreen, capture Gilgamesh (Who, despite his Adaptational Heroism, still rather inarguably has this coming) and use him as a Living Battery to replicate Servants.
Naming Gilles his second-in-command (Which, admittedly, is never a good decision for anyone despite his competence) Karl engages in a massive invasion of the Moon Cell. Forging a genuine bond with the now-young Altera, an alien Attila the Hun from the previous game who he once saw as an inspiration in a cave painting, Karl manages to talk her into his way of thinking without any brainwashing. There's a total of three routes, but the short version is that on every route, Karl invades the Moon Cell. He is a reasonable Benevolent Boss, genuinely bonds with Altera to the point where on one route she actually leaves the castle to fight for him.
To summarize the entire plot is, despite the game being far shorter than the others in the series, really, really complicated, so I'm going to boil it down to this: In every route, Karl attempts to invade the Moon Cell in an attempt to activate his fourth Noble Phantasm (Basically an ultimate power) called the "Monolith", which will allow him to Oraclize the entire Moon Cell. In every route, he is driven back, constantly adjusting his plans and never truly getting enraged. (He's not immune to frustration and anger, but he never truly breaks down.) He always ends up summoning a Humongous Mecha and fighting back against the heroes to his very last breath, sometimes having a dignified final conversation with Charlemagne, who effectively rebukes him every time due to the lengths he'll go to.
Is he magnificent? Is he intelligent? Oh, yes. Karl is eloquent, a smooth operator, excellent as the blade as he is with the tongue, genuinely kind, and badass as all hell. He consistently adjusts plans, shows respect to everyone, friend and foe alike, minus sometimes Charlemagne, who he genuinely hates (to some extent) for his optimism. If we are to explain it simply, Karl is the Archer to Charlemagne's Shirou, only without the constant betrayal and Jerkass demeanor.
Karl bonds easily with people, and if he doesn't bond with them, he Oraclizes them. He even manages to, as noted, convince Altera to fight for him on one route. Even dying, Karl is likable, with the protagonist and Altera even expressing a wish to revive him eventually.
Is he a bastard? Too much? I mean, yeah, he's evil. Karl's Affably Evil to the peak of it, but he still wants to brainwash everyone, has the fabulously psychotic and cruel Gilles de Rais as his second in command, ties Gilgamesh down as a Living Battery, and after he's gone, has the Oraclized Jeanne d'Arc take his place.
That said, he's genuinely a kind soul who simply believes that sometimes evil measures must be taken to achieve unity and happiness.
Oh, and he's a bit of a Covert Pervert, talking about perhaps getting a "cyber-frame wife" and hitting on a few of the female Servants in battle, but it's not nearly enough for me to consider that a mitigating factor, seeing as we've had characters worse about that from this franchise alone.
Can he think on his feet? Karl is constantly adjusting his strategies and coming up with new ones on the fly. While the heroes are consistently defeating him, he almost always has a backup. For example, upon losing Gilgamesh due to a raid on his cloning factory, Karl has Gilles use Jeanne d'Arc in her place out of practicality, hence essentially completely nullifying a victory against him. Karl's generals tend to fail more often than not, but Karl always takes the responsibility for the failures themselves, noting that slinging blame won't aid in the war effort.
On every one of the routes, Karl manages to find a way to unleash his final power, sometimes ambushing Charlemagne and stealing his power after admitting to being backed into a corner. Karl is always very close to total victory before the heroes bring him down, despite the multitude of battles they've won. He usually has his troops delay the protagonists long enough to enact his plan, and always pulls it off.
Is he charming? Devotedly religious, genuinely kind, clever, manages to talk powerful Servants into serving him, even the protagonists like him, not to mention being a total badass in combat. I'd say he passes the "charming" bar easily.
Conclusion? I meant to handle every route individually, but sweet Jesus, that would be hard even with the lesser content of this particular entry. (Not to mention that no matter the route, events essentially end up playing out the same way, only with a little extra.)
I think he's a keeper, but I'm not entirely sure.
If you want more exact plot details, here's his article on the wiki.
The plot is too big and has too many small variations on the same story for me to explain here and still get the EP in.
Based on the writeup,
to Ariel. Danielle Panabaker will be 33 in September. That lady barely ages!
@43 Was not attempting to jump the gun, I was just agreeing with you. I am willing to wait for the EP.
In the same vein, someone see Eagle Eye recently? I think a case can definitely be made for ARIIA.
I see the EP by the way. I will vote on the writeup if no other candidates come through.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on May 6th 2020 at 7:17:19 AM
Karl. Unless there's a total curveball in one of those routes, he seems like an easy keep.
Edit: Having watched the scene that Riley mentioned, Watts seems to walk the line between Smug Snake and Magnificent Bastard. I was a weak
, now I'm abstaining.
Edited by jjjj2 on May 6th 2020 at 11:17:01 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid

I voted Watts up having not watched the show in a while. Having watched exclusively the fight scenes from Volume 7? Those alone would indicate he’s not a keeper, and this just confirms it to me. He can go if you ask me.