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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#18601: May 6th 2020 at 10:31:48 AM

I guess so I could do a write up this evening or tomorrow. Finals don’t start until Friday.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#18602: May 6th 2020 at 10:32:22 AM

Thanks man! I'll hold off cutting Yami Bakura until we can just do a swap out in that case.

Edited by 43110 on May 6th 2020 at 1:32:47 PM

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#18603: May 6th 2020 at 11:15:06 AM

A new EP from Grimm:

As You Know, Grimm is a fantasy-mystery police procedural show on NBC that aired from 2011-2017, starring David Giuntoli as Nick Burkhardt, a Portland police detective that learns he has supernatural abilities to combat Wesen, humanlike creatures that live among humans and can turn into human-animal hybrids.

Who is the candidate?

Ariel Eberhart (Danielle Panabaker) is a fire-dancer and Damonfeurer, a dragon-type Wesen that can breathe fire using flammable lipids. Her father Fred is a former welder and her mother is dead, having died in a fire. Fred has grown despondent since her mother died and now lives in a cave at the end of a railroad line where he hoards copper.

One night, Fred burns two men alive who were trying to do the same thing as he was: steal copper. As her father's next of kin, Nick contacts her about her father and Ariel tells him that she hasn't heard from her father in some years. Suspicious, Nick follows her home. Ariel ambushes him, ripping open Nick's shirt and taking his phone just when his girlfriend Juliette calls him; Ariel answers it, pretending that Nick's cheating on Juliette. Nick leaves to explain things to Juliette while Ariel visits her father to tell him that she's found someone to make things better.

The next night, Ariel kidnaps Juliette and calls Nick; she explains that she'd lost hope for her father until Nick showed up and she's invoking an age-old story: Save the Princess from the dragon in the cave. Oh, and don't bring cops. Nick, accompanied by Monroe, go to the cave. Monroe rescues Juliette while Nick fights Fred, killing him with a copper pipe. Ariel assures her father that he fought well, then creates a giant explosion in the cave; she is presumed dead but the episode ends with her leaving the cave unharmed, and that's the last we see from her.

Is she intelligent? Charismatic?

Ariel's pretty manipulative, as she engineers a situation where her father can die honorably and plays Nick like a fiddle the entire episode. She didn't know that Nick was a Grimm until they met face-to-face, but she takes that knowledge and runs with it. She’s generally alluring, with a flirtatious personality.

Is she a bastard? Too much?

Kidnapping, pretending that Nick is cheating on Juliette just to screw with them both. However, she loves both her parents and she wants her father to die nobly, in a manner that her culture would find acceptable.

Verdict?

Second monster of the week, I think.

Edited by k410ren on May 6th 2020 at 2:23:16 PM

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#18606: May 6th 2020 at 11:30:47 AM

[tup] Eberhart.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#18607: May 6th 2020 at 11:31:18 AM

As we discussed [tup] to Ariel Eberhart.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#18608: May 6th 2020 at 11:31:59 AM

[tup]Eveberhart

What about Ms. Garcia the vigilante Bogeywomen? She's also one of the only motw villains to totally get away with it.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#18609: May 6th 2020 at 11:38:15 AM

Mir: I thought about her and I don't think if she qualifies. She gets away with it sure and she's good at playing the innocent sweet kind old lady act. But she doesn't have any big plans, tactics or much in way of manipulation.

She finds targets cause her kind naturally can hear people calling for help. She wins fights purely cause her species is naturally stronger than the people she attacks (and even then its mostly through ambushes of unsuspecting opponents) and she gets away with it, simply cause their is no way they could charge an old woman with killing a young thug with out blowing open the masquerade that protect all Wesen.

Edited by MGD107 on May 6th 2020 at 11:41:44 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#18611: May 6th 2020 at 11:47:18 AM

Cut this unapproved entry from YMMV.Dungeons And Dragons:

  • Mephistopheles, archduke of Cania, is one of the three most powerful creatures in the Nine Hells, and one of the two with the intellect and power to actually challenge Asmodeus (the only other person on that list, Tiamat, makes it simply by being that powerful). Second in authority only to Asmodeus, he maintains his position by outgambiting everyone beneath him. He once manipulated his entire court, a court consisting solely of schemers and manipulators, into revealing their disloyalty so he could purge them.

On that note how do we wanna title the two keepers at the top of the D&D folder? Franchise-wide or what?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#18612: May 6th 2020 at 11:51:57 AM

Mephistopheles is a vile Serial Rapist who ends up beaten, humiliated and is always second fiddle to Asmodeus. No, no and no again

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#18613: May 6th 2020 at 11:59:46 AM

Oh good god it's the old definition springing back up again "Yeah, he might be a rapist but he's a really cool one! There, one thing is magnificent, one is bastardly... can I have a cookie now?"

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#18614: May 6th 2020 at 12:02:45 PM

[tup]Ariel. Nice small scale version of this trope.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#18617: May 6th 2020 at 1:37:50 PM

[tdown]Ariel. I don't think she stood out that much for this trope. She was good for a villain of the week, but not this trope good.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#18618: May 6th 2020 at 1:56:07 PM

Something we’re missing here Wyld or is this more of a personal feeling kinda thing?

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#18619: May 6th 2020 at 2:17:20 PM

I forget, did manga TKB freak out about being turned into sand or was that an anime-only thing?

The Protomen enhanced my life.
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#18620: May 6th 2020 at 2:21:42 PM

Ask Satoshi. Like 43, I've only watched the anime.

Yes to Ariel unless someone can provide a sufficient argument against her.

I've read a bit of the manga but never got that far.

Edited by Klavice on May 6th 2020 at 2:22:49 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#18621: May 6th 2020 at 2:26:00 PM

Lala if you’re dropping by again do you have votes for... anything we’re talking about?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#18624: May 6th 2020 at 3:03:26 PM

So I was gonna get these guys written up when I got my second Wakfu candidate up, but apparently at some point I incorrectly assumed I had written up Black Shadow. Lemme just get this done now:

  • F-Zero: The Legend of Falcon: Black Shadow is the bombastically evil mastermind behind Dark Million, and a character ten times as devious and stylish as his video game counterpart. Black Shadow manipulates virtually all the conflict across 50 episodes in his scheme to obtain the Reactor Mights and use them to create a universe of evil, a dream Black Shadow has dedicated himself to fulfilling with every inch of his being. Black Shadow plays heroes and allies alike as pawns while rarely ever getting up from his seat, and nearly curbstomping the heroes every time he does finally step in directly. Black Shadow's manipulations even stretch 150 years in the past, having directly arranged for the creation of both his Co-Dragons and even numerous fail-safes to stop The Chosen One Ryu Suzaku from stopping him. Black Shadow has planned for every failure in advance, always ready with an Evil Laugh and a wicked grin for every apparent setback, and remains in total control of the series up until Captain Falcon is forced to perform a galaxy-shattering Heroic Sacrifice to stop him.

  • Golden Sun: Alex is the closest thing the series has to a Big Bad, running the course of Enigmatic Minion to eventual chessmaster in the span of three games. A Mercury Adept who betrayed his sister and his clan for the pursuit of personal power, Alex makes and breaks alliances with heroes and villains alike at his own convenience, always concealing his true intentions behind a stoic, cool-headed exterior. At the climax of The Lost Age, Alex manipulates every party into a position where they have no choice but activate the Elemental Lighthouses and bestow Alex the godlike power of Alchemy. Even when Alex is out-gambitted and seemingly left for dead on the collapsing Mt. Aleph, Alex adopts the identity of Arcanus in Dark Dawn and resumes old habits, cheerfully manipulating entire nations to his advantage and activating the apocalyptic event known as the Grave Eclipse. At Dark Dawn's end, Alex appears to betrays his allies once again to undo the apocalypse he himself wrought, and escapes to seemingly end the series as he started it: unharmed, unfazed, and a total mystery to everyone who knows him.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#18625: May 6th 2020 at 3:17:57 PM

Something we’re missing here Wyld or is this more of a personal feeling kinda thing?

Well... since it's been a while since I last saw the episode, I decided to rewatch the episode first before making this post. I watched it with this trope in mind and I really do not think this trope is in action at all.

  • Ariel finds out Nick is a Grimm as soon as he goes to her club. She's doing a fire dance performance in a leather bikini, blows some fire towards him, then morphs into her Wesen form to look straight at him. That's when she realises he's Grimm, but she just grins at him and carries on.
  • Nick goes to her dressing room afterwards, and we have the rather standard interrogation scenario where the cop tries to question the scantily clad woman while she flirtatiously strips off in front of him. He's obviously embarrassed, but it doesn't stop him asking the questions he came to ask.
  • Although she claims she hasn't seen her father, Nick doesn't buy it and tails her home.
  • When he sees something suspect in her back garden, he walks around the side of the house to investigate and she ambushes him from the side, knocking him to the ground, kissing him and ripping his shirt open. He throws her off and that's when Juliette phones. Now, this scene is actually very similar to some other scenes that happen in the show, particularly the pilot episode: Nick was spying on a suspect's house, decided to go around the side of the house to investigate the back garden and gets ambushed from the side and knocked down. In that case, it's Monroe, and they end up becoming friends. But the core of the scene (the Wesen Nick's investigating knows he's there and ambushes him from the side of the house) is exactly the same.
  • Also, her attempt to use the phone call to drive an immediate wedge[1] between Nick and Juliette fails because Nick explains himself when he gets home and Juliette decides to trust his version. This is where we see Ariel has followed Nick back to his house and she draws the broken heart on his window in response to Juliette accepting the story and the pair hugging.
  • We know from what Ariel says to her father that she's kidnapping Juliette to act as a proxy for her mother so that he can fight to protect her. Once Juliette has been kidnapped, Ariel actually tells Fred it's her mother and he needs to protect her. But we've known from the beginning of the episode that he's very far gone mentally, so we don't actually know if he's playing the role or really believes it's his wife. Ariel does imply that Juliette was chosen partially because she resembles Ariel's mother (and partially because she's the girlfriend of a Grimm, and a Grimm can give Fred the fight he needs to die with dignity).
  • Ariel baiting Nick into her trap is also fairly standard villain, and certainly a standard cop-versus-villain scenario: phone the cop, tell him she's changed her mind about helping with the case, so could he come by her place for them to talk. Nick at least subverts that type of plot by taking Hank with him instead of going alone. However, she's not there because she's busy kidnapping Juliette and lying in Nick's bed waiting for Nick to come home.
  • Although Nick lies on the bed, he doesn't get much further than just moving her hair back because she's got a massive tattoo on her back that he instantly recognises. So... I'm not even entirely sure what the point of the bedroom scene was for this particular episode.
  • Anyway, after escaping his house, she phones him on Juliette's phone to tell him to come alone and bring no cops — which is standard villain fare — and is the reason why I don't get the point of the bedroom scene: she could have just kidnapped Juliette and then phoned; Ariel may spend the entire episode flirting with Nick, but it never comes across as successful flirting.
  • Nick loopholes the 'no cops' by bringing his non-cop friend (Monroe) — also standard cop tactic.
  • Now included in the rescue, Monroe figures out Ariel's plan very quickly: standard dragon quest of kidnap the beautiful princess, force the heroic knight to rescue her, dragon and hero fight to the death. Monroe's a bit aggrieved that he didn't realise this sooner.
  • Although Nick has no real plan, he does have a basic one: distract Ariel by walking openly in while Monroe sneaks in, searches for Juliette and rescues her. Monroe finds Juliette very quickly.
  • Monroe only gets Juliette's hands untied before Ariel comes back for Juliette. Ariel tells her to scream and Juliette decks her to the ground instead. She and Monroe escape, leaving Ariel on the ground looking dazed and confused for a short moment.
  • Nick and Fred fight, with Nick killing Fred. Ariel tells her father he's died with dignity then Nick has to escape the lair before she fireballs the place. He does so fairly easily.
  • Although the characters think she's dead, it really isn't a surprise to the audience that Ariel walks out of the lair unscathed. The explosion was actually pretty bad, but that might just be a special effects fail.

[1] I just want to say, in the interest of full disclosure, that the episode does end with some tension between Nick and Juliette, but it's because she's just survived a kidnapping experience. The episode ends on the note of how Nick's job just got real for Juliette and the fact that being a Grimm puts Juliette's life in even more danger just got real for Nick. It's not Ariel's manipulations that do that, it's the kidnapping.

So, the episode has a fairly standard femme fatale character whose only successes in the episode are in keeping with a number of other episodes, she's crazy, but not the craziest character we've ever seen; she's manipulative, but not the most manipulative character we've ever seen; she's flirty, but not the most flirtatious character we've ever seen. She has a mixed bag of successes and fails in the episode. Meanwhile, the plot runs through some typical cop versus antagonist of the week moves and counter-moves while giving the whole thing a 'dragon quest' theme.

It's an okay episode, but not one of the more exciting ones. It just feels run-of-the-mill to me, and that's why I've down-voted her.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 6th 2020 at 11:44:07 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

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