During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Pappy is a rage-filled Jerkass the audience only roots for due to the fact his rival turns out to be worse. He has one clever moment near the end in using the leads to get himself re-elected, but that’s about it.
Edit: ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Arianna.
Edited by Riley1sCool on May 2nd 2020 at 7:55:18 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
Arianna
Here's my first ever MB entry.
- Sukiyaki Western Django: The Gunman is a roaming gunslinger looking for gold. Arriving into an unnamed town run by the rival Heikie and Genji clans, the Gunman chooses to instead side with retired assassin Ruriko and play both sides against each other. Tricking the Heikes into leaving town to attack the Genjis in order to save the poor Shizuka, he collaborates with Rukiro on her plan to summon the Heikes and the Genjis together with a chest containing gold in order to take them both out. Caught in a duel with Genji leader Yoshitsune, once the Gunman appears to be caught in a tight spot, he whips out a hidden derringer from his sleeve and kills him. Riding out of town with only a handful of the gold, he leaves it all to the young, mute Heihachi, leaving him with life advice so moving, the boy begins to talk again.
@ Riley, Well that answers that.
@ Jackie, Excellent work, my friend.
@ Klavice, We'll wait for someone to come in with a second opinion on Warrior Cats but how exactly is said "Nazi symbolism" played? We don't disqualify Thrawn for being the agent of a totalitarian regime and looking at the character pages for Team Magma their "Nazism" seems to be more "We should separate people and Pokemon" and I seriously question if we can apply genocidal, war-crime tones when this is the level at which it's played.
@ Vile, I can clean the grammar later but it's still around 250 words. Do you think you can trim that more? I can assist if you're finding it troublesome but lmk.
Edited by 43110 on May 2nd 2020 at 12:39:37 PM
weak Arianna.
Goku Black
I found this beautiful zce on A Certain Magical Index
- Magnificent Bastard:
- Alesitar Crowley
43110, Lighty what do you think since I know youve seen it?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
As of now he 100% counts but the problem is he's the Overarching Villain of it and it's a huge work... he's nowhere near done and given his Tragic Past, I'd definitely like to wait until the end to see about him because they could well make him out to be too broken for this.
I find it troublesome to trim Dawes' entry more, because i can't think of a way to make it shorter and still have it include his motives, crimes and brilliant moments, where he easily manipulates and outsmarts everyone.
Well it’s like a CM entry, you don’t have to put in everything he does, just the most notable flourishes of the trope.
You can use this as you'd like but I'm just going to leave it up because I found it could be kept largely the same while cutting back on word count:
- Battlefield Hardline: Captain Julian Dawes leads a group of corrupt officers to cut deals with drug lords, wherein the latter groups are offered protection for agreeing for swearing a truce and ceasing violent conflict on the streets. When his attempts to corrupt Officer Nick Mendoza fail, Dawes manipulates Nick into giving him the evidence which would implicate Dawes and has Nick framed for corruption. Taking over Miami over the next three years with his organization the "Preferred Outcomes", Dawes begins expanding his operation to Los Angeles and becomes aware of the recently released Nick killing a number of his associates. Predicting Nick would try to steal his money, Dawes lures him and his allies to his remote island and tricks them with a bomb rigged on his vault, badly injuring one of Nick's comrades. Offering Nick a position in his organization when they confront each other, after Dawes is shot dead by Nick he leaves a recording revealing he knew Nick would kill him, that he did what he truly believed was best for society and details the location of his money, offering Nick the chance to take up his position.
Edited by 43110 on May 2nd 2020 at 3:31:06 PM
Thanks for the effort. I just fix one mistake (his vault, that he rigged with explosive was within the city, its after the explosion injured Tyson, he decided to invite Nick to his remote island, where his base with all his money was) and put this version in the drafts.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on May 2nd 2020 at 10:36:12 PM
The Unknown Unknown
All right, here's another I planned to do before my hiatus began months ago. It's, uh, an interesting one... that I'd never thought I'd do, but here we go...
What's the work?
Cars 2 is the second installment of the Cars franchise, following Lightning Mc Queen's invitation to the World Grand Prix. He brings along his friends from Radiator Springs as his pit crew, along with first-time team member Tow Mater, who gets mixed up in an intelligence exchange with some British spy cars.
Who is the candidate? The character’s actions?
Oil Baron-turned-electric-vehicle Sir Miles Axlerod has discovered Allinol, a new clean alternative fuel source. To promote it, he creates and sponsors the first ever World Grand Prix, where the best racers compete to see who's the fastest car in the world using alternative fuel. In reality, he works under the radar with weapons dealer Professor 'Z' Zündapp. Having taken note of the world shifting to oil and using his connections to both Allinol and a large oil reserve in a bid to gain money and power, Miles Axlerod employs Z as the face of his operations while he takes care of the logistics and public business side. He convinces a legion of criminal lemon cars to his side under the promise of becoming more powerful against the world that shunned them.
Upon learning that the British Intelligence is now actively investigating their plans, Axlerod has Z capture a Rod, another spy, and pump him full of Allinol. Z developed a camera up that targets the molecular biology of Allinol, which begins overheating Rod's insides and causing him pain. Zündapp tries to interrogate him, but Rod stays strong and is ultimately killed when Z puts the camera on full blast, causing him to explode in a Gory Discretion Shot.
Axlerod begins his plans for the World Grand Prix, having Zündapp use the weaponized camera to sabotage many racers and cause massive crashes that result in serious injuries and near death for the racers throughout the entire tournament. By the time the world is up in a frenzy about Allinol's "faultiness," Axlerod makes a public statement that he's pulling Allinol from being used in the race. However, Lightning Mc Queen, believing Axlerod to be a friend, says that he will use Allinol for the final race of the Grand Prix just to show it is safe. Axlerod orders Mc Queen be targeted by the camera for the final race, and he and Zündapp make sure the camera is at its strongest so as to kill Mc Queen to put the final nail in the coffin for alternative fuels.
In the British leg of the Word Grand Prix proper, the camera fails to work on Mc Queen, but Axlerod had a backup plan: he has his men plant a bomb on Mater, knowing he'll escape his imprisonment and get closer to Mc Queen at the pit stop. Then, it's revealed he had another constigency: because it is voice-activatd by Axlerod solely, when his Dragon Z is captured and forced to deactivate it, it decreases the timer instead.
Mater ultimately puts together that Axlerod was behind everything and confronts him with the ticking bomb near the Queen of England, and Axlerod panics and deactivates it to save his own skin, revealing himself as the mastermind working with Zündapp and the two are arrested.
Magnificent (Charming, charismatic, intelligent, etc.)?
Axlerod, as a lemon, uses this fact to rally other older models into their criminal ways, and Axlerod makes a speech about how soon they'll be the ones laughing once they become the biggest suppliers of the world's oil. Through his powerful oration, he's amassed many allies that truly believe in his ways. In public, Axlerod plays the role of a kind businessman who thinks of the best of others and belives in Allinol (until it's time not to) in convincing fashion. He's able to stay under the radar for almost all of the film, using his public image to pull things in his direction as needed, had a few backups put in place, and nobody suspects him until... (grooooan) Mater.
Speaking of... (groooooon), all right, look. I don't think we should penalize Sir Axlerod's plans falling apart just because Mater is given the Smart Ball by the writers. If some candidates don't qualify because their smarts are conveniently autor-mandated, I don't think others — in this case Axlerod — should be disqualified because the heroes get the inverse priviledge. Wouldn't be fair, don't you think?
Bastard? Too much?
The Complete Monster thread approved Axlerod alongside Zündapp for being heinous enough in a kids' film, and it shows. There's murder, wreckages, and torture that's veiled by the fact the acts are committed against cars. As Axlerod is the ringleader of the lemon movement and makes most of the orders, all that of that blood (er, oil) is on his hands... well, tires. The "excuse" as a lemon is an extremely flimsy one as Mater, who is a lemon himself, even points out. Axlerod is one of the richest cars in the world, and is never shown to be picked on, he's only doing this for more money and power.
So, how does Axlerod meet our so-called 'Hans Gruber clause' then? Well, other than being a kids' film that limits what can be done, I think it's also because Profesosr Z is the most visible of the two. What do I mean by that? Z gets all the smug, cowardly moments, such as when Mater and crew can't deactivate the bomb, and not Axlerod. Because the twist isn't shown until the very end, Axlerod keeps his good image and demeanor, carefully pulling things along in the background without much opposition. In fact, the only thing he's got the say after being caught is "How did the tow truck find out?!" before he's removed from the film. It helps that Miles Axlerod is a damn fine actor in pubic, being a soft-spoken Villain with Good Publicity, and I point to his convincingly downtrodden declaration that Allinol will be discontinued in that one interview. His heinousness is rather under-the-radar.
Conclusion?
I hate this film, but if the shoes fits...?
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Sure to Axelrod.
EDIT: Switching to abstain.
Edited by falcontalons on May 2nd 2020 at 12:42:59 PM
His crimes aren’t so much what gives me issue as he’s taken down having to deactivate his bomb because he’s freaking out for his own life.
Goku Black
For anyone curious
Uh.....sorry dude this seems a bit too cowardly for this.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Unknown Unknown
The only thing I can say to that is everyone in that scene, besides Mater and... the Queen, were freaking out, and I guess Axlerod was trying to go with it as long as he could.
But, other than that, ya'll two got me there.
Edited by erazor0707 on May 2nd 2020 at 3:52:15 PM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Caesar
I'll throw a 'Yes' Arianna's way.
My only issue with Axlerod is his defeat, tbh. The guy's villainy isn't too shockingly evil for the trope at all (even if he is a CM), and he does keep up a good guise for most of the movie, but when he's confronted at the end, his recourse to Mater's accusations is pretty damn flimsy, and devolves into outright frantic panicking when Mater holds him hostage with his own bomb.
Like, on the one hand, yes, his life was in danger so I can understand some panic, but he legitimately starts screaming for someone to help him and get Mater away from him, and desperately trying to just shout down Mater's accusations before finally giving the deactivate order to save himself, leading to his arrest.
It's ehhhhh iffy, it's a kid's movie so I can let some of the cliches that come with that (such as the villains often being a bit more cowardly than other media), but it's also such a blatant and explicit show of how he reacts under serious pressure (that is to say, very poorly) that I'm leaning towards No.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Leaning towards ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
with Sir Miles Axlerod. I've seen the movie as well (sadly), and yeah, his final moments kind of paint him towards being a Smug Snake who inevitably cracked in his final moments. I also despise that Mater was the one who figured out his entire plan and caught him, but that's less a problem with Axlerod and more of the writers being incompetent. 
After watching the clip, I'm saying no.
Nay to Axlerod.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
No to Axlerod. Though I am in the minority of those who actually likes the film, but yeah his last moments are to much.
Edited by Bullman on May 2nd 2020 at 3:05:15 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Nay there.
- Knightfall: William de Nogaret is one of the chief powers behind the French throne. Inspiring violence in the capital to convince Philip to confiscate the property of the Jewish population to strengthen the throne, de Nogaret later also poisons himself in a gambit to manipulate Princess Isabella in eliminating her fiancee Prince Lluis of Navarre, assassinating the English ambassador and establishing a match for Isabella with England. Later returning to power and helping to manipulate the fall of the Knights Templar, de Nogaret achieves his revenge on the Pope who murdered his parents and once he has had enough of Philip's madness and abuse, de Nogaret sides with his son Louis to leave Philip to his fate and secure de Nogaret's place as Louis' most loyal follower.
Goku Black
@Tyke: Its one of those cases of a character flubbing it at the finish line.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Oh goody. So I discovered this forum's version of a CM getting a redeeming quality five seconds before their demise. 
The Unknown Unknown
How equally annoying.
Bah, I'll get an animated MB one of these days.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Axelrod.
The entry alone is pretty general and that leaves the steps he takes ambiguous but that may be worth looking into... not really enough to go by there.