During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Dawes
to Captain Julian Dawes.
"The Juice is Loose."
Goku Black
Davies.
Yeah to Dawes. I kept thinking even as I played through that boring campaign how much better he was than the rest of it.
to Dawes
Yes to Dawes.
Arthur Jensen from Network is listed as an MB on the YMMV page:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/Network
I do not think he does enough to count, he has a speech where he convinces a news anchor going through a mental breakdown to become his personal propagandist, but that is all he does.
Just cut it.
Also Jackie and I should have something coming up soon for y'all!
Edited by 43110 on May 1st 2020 at 10:37:36 AM
Before I get to the Dogen writeup, can anyone else who's read Warrior Cats can tell me if Sol is still a contender? I doubt anyone from the Dark Forest counts due to the nazi symbolism, and everyone else that isn't a hero gets played too often, though if he weren't so petty, Ashfur might be a contender? The only other cat I can think of that might count as of Series 6 is Clear Sky, but even he doesn't manipulate much.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
So it's late and shiz. I knows. Was busy earlier with other shiz and things and things and shiz. I've already talked about Strike Back before so I'll just go into what this season is about.
In Vendetta, this time around, Section 20 is after a mysterious terrorist known as Zayef. He's very secretive, known as something of a celebrity amongst terrorists, been planning lots of heinous shit, etc. Section 20 finds themselves getting entangled not only with Zayef and his group of terrorists, but also the Demachi Family, a group of Albanian mobsters who are trying to sell a bioweapon to Zayef's organization. So let's get on with the main villain of this season.
Who Is She?
Arianna Demachi (real name Elena Stabokina) is the Big Bad of the season. She's the Evil Matriarch of the Demachi crime family—until it's later revealed she's really a covert Russian agent.
What Has She Done?
Arianna first appears walking into her mansion after her husband, Edon, successfully steals a strain of a Marburg virus to sell on the black market. She convinces him to have one of his assassins killed due to his brutality—and also because of his repeated failures in the episode. In the second episode, Arianna takes her son, Loric, to a strip club to try and distract him from Edon recently murdering his lover. You see, Loric's gay, but Arianna and Edon need Loric to marry himself into the Vironi crime family to settle a blood feud, which causes obvious friction between Loric and his parents. Section 20 finds out about Loric's troubles and track him and Arianna down to the club to turn him into an informant. They also take Arianna hostage and a gunfight ensues, but she gets free. As the family return home, Mr. Vironi and some of his thugs appear. After Vironi starts beating Edon and calls his family "mountain trash," Arianna takes a handgun and kills Vironi, before Edon kills his guards. When Edon tries to do a deal with Zayef and his brother Mahir, Section 20 arrives and botches the deal. Edon tries to escape, but is killed by Thomas "Mac" McAllister. Arianna, at Edon's funeral, swears vengeance.
Jump ahead to Episode 5, where Mac is hunting down Zayef after he set off a bomb in Munich that killed Mahir, amongst many others. At the end of the episode, Mac is hot on Zayef's tail, but when he opens an apartment door, he's shocked to find Arianna. This gives Zayef enough time to shoot Mac in the neck, where he bleeds out and dies minutes later. Later on, Loric meets with the Four Uncles of the Albanian Mafia. After a disagreement with one of the Uncles, it's revealed that Arianna conspired to have three of the Four killed, and she keeps one of them—Daniel Kalmedi—alive for future reasons. Kalmedi doesn't bend to Arianna and escapes from her trap. Arianna and Loric meet with Zayef and agree to sell Kalmedi's arms cache to him in exchange for money. When Kalmedi refuses to give them up, Zayef and Loric just rob the bank where Kalmedi keeps the codes to said cache. Afterwards, Arianna finds Kalmedi wounded from a gunfight and executes him. She calls Coltrane himself and explains why she intends on killing him and rest of Section 20 before they're caught in a trap. However, they escape.
Arianna finds out that Loric confessed to working with Section 20. After Loric tries to kill her during an argument, Arianna stabs him to death. Later on, we find out that Arianna is a deep cover Russian agent named Elena Stabokin tasked with securing ties with the Albanian Mafia, and has been doing so for twenty years. With Zayef, his allies, and everyone allied with Arianna dead, her superiors send her on a new mission to secure a hard drive Zayef had containing loads of evidence regarding a terrorist conspiracy orchestrated by the British and American intelligence agencies. After kidnapping Section 20 member Manisha Chetri, Arianna interrogates her at a Russian black site, telling her to give up the evidence so she'll be spared from torture. Unfortunately, Chetri refuses, and her impatient superiors start torturing Chetri. Eventually, Chetri gives up the evidence.
Except no.
Turns out she installed a worm that destroys it all. And on top of this, Section 20 has located Chetri and Arianna. Arianna, knowing there's nothing left, shoots Chetri in the head in front of Section 20 and escapes. In the finale, it's revealed that Arianna is being tasked to launder $250 million so Russian will establish links all throughout Europe through the Albanian mafia. Coltrane, Novin, and Wyatt—all that's left of Section 20—steal $15 million and blow up the rest. But then they realize that the money they stole is completely counterfeit, and Arianna had the real money moved prior to the heist. There's a sudden Time Skip. Coltrane has found Arianna in Mexico...somehow. THIS IS NEVER EXPLAINED BY THE WAY; HE JUST FINDS HER BECAUSE PLOT. >__>
Anyway, long story short, Arianna tries to give Coltrane some of the money she stole. Coltrane shoots her in the forehead.
Is She Charming? Charismatic? Magnificent?
Indeed. She loves her family and would do anything for them. She tries to have Loric marry the Vironi Family to end a blood feud. When that fails, she just up and kills Vironi and tells Edon to take over. When Edon dies, she takes over, going underground and reorganizing the Demachi Family. Despite losing her husband, Arianna doesn't become a raving hot-head who goes around killing anyone and everyone for petty vengeance. Instead she spends her time forming a plan, figuring out a way to have the Four Uncles killed (or kidnapped in Daniel's case). There's a point where Coltrane calls Arianna and tells her that they barely remember killing her husband. Arianna very casually says the same thing about Mac, about how he was just another "target in the way." During the eighth episode when Loric tries to kill her, Arianna effortlessly dodges a knife attack and steals it from him. On top of that, Arianna lets Loric pick up her gun (which was empty) and allows Loric to pull the trigger. Then she stabs him to death, apologizing while doing so. Even when Arianna is interrogating Chetri, she tries to sympathize with her, telling her that their countries don't care about the truth or doing the right thing, only for their soldiers to follow the orders they're given. And if they don't, they die.
When Novin, Coltrane, and Wyatt steal from Arianna's stash and find her, she immediately has them take her hostage, persuading them not to kill her. And as soon as they set off the bombs and blow up the money, she uses the opportunity to flee. And knowing that her country doesn't give a rat's ass about her, Arianna does the only thing she can do and just takes all the money and starts a new life in Mexico.
The only bit of contention I have here is her death scene. Similar to Christopher Henderson, she accepts her fate with a calm demeanor. But literally a split second before Coltrane kills her, she holds up her hands and screams "WAIT!" Although I feel this was less her revealing her Smug Snake nature and more of a human instinctual reaction, where she finally understood she was about to die and reacted the way any human who didn't wanna die would react.
Is She a Bitch? Too Much of a Bitch?
Absolutely. She's just as bad as her husband and son. She's well aware of Edon's criminal activities and even pushes Edon into doing his deal with Zayef about selling the bioweapon. She arranges for Mac to be killed, had various members of the Albanian Mafia murdered, and personally executes Chetri right in front of Section 20, who only fail to save her because of the bulletproof glass between them. By far her biggest crime is murdering her own son. To be fair, he brought it on himself, but she manages to kill the young man with little hesitation, and simply told herself she had to because she was ordered to. She also betrays her country, but considering that Russia would've killed Arianna for allowing Section 20 blow up their stash of money, she made the right call there.
Also, for those wondering about the whole arranged marriage thing with Loric? Arianna (and Edon) aren't doing this as a way to "rape the gay" out of Loric; they just need to settle the feud between the Vironi family, that's all. Even when Arianna takes Loric to the strip club and has him go into one of the VIP rooms with a prostitute, she tells Loric to "stare at the fucking ceiling or think about one of your boyfriends" because they're surrounded by members of the Albanian mafia, and they need Loric to maintain his appearance.
Final Verdict?
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yes? Maybe?
If y'all got questions, feel free to ask.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Nagoret, Gunman, Dylan, Thaddeus and Dawes
As for Arianna... How is the thing with her soon and the prostitute played? Because that sounds like it could be rapey out of context.
Going with a yes.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
She just tells him to go into the room with her and to either pretend to have sex with her or to pretend that he's enjoying it. It's obvious she didn't expect him to actually do anything with her, but if he went in the room with her, then the other mobsters would think she's sucking him off. She knows he's gay and she knows he doesn't enjoy hiding who he is, but she expects her son to make some sacrifices for his family—hence the arranged marriage. To be fair, the sex never actually happens. The prostitute doesn't even get her clothes off by the time Mac comes along and tries to get Loric to be an informant for Section 20 and pays the prostitute to leave the room.
Edited by Tyk5919 on May 1st 2020 at 1:48:51 PM
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
In that case? Arianna
to Arianna
Goku Black
Arianna
The defeat sounds lame though.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Since it got enough upvotes, here is Dawes entry:
Battlefield Hardline: Captain Julian Dawes is the respectable head of the Vice division of the police department in Miami in public and the charismatic leader of the underground network of corruption within the city. Seeing the battle between criminals and the police as a hopeless battle that kill too many innocents, Dawes created the group of corrupt cops, who would make deals with various drug lords, offering them protection in exchange for them swearing truce and stopping the conflicts on the streets. After Nick Mendoza proved himself to be too honest and uncorruptable and picked on his trail, Dawes efforetlesly manipulates him to find and hand him over all the evidence that implicates Dawes' organisation and then frames him for corruption instead. Three years later Dawes has fully taken over Miami's criminal underground and created his own army, called Preferred Outcomes. Starting to expand his influence in Los Angeles, Dawes soon becomes aware that recently freed Nick Mendoza, along with the former detective Khai Minh Dao and the former criminal Tyson Latchford killed most of his associates in the city, as well as his right hand Carl Stoddard. Predicting that next the heroes would try to steal all his money, Dawes moved them away to his island and set his vault to explode if it was forced open, a trick that badly injured Tyson. Inviting Nick Mendoza to his base, Dawes offered him a high position in his organization and when Nick decided to murder him, through his letter Dawes reveals that he knew that would happen and reveals to him the location to his vault, where all his money were, letting him decide what he wanted to do with it.
"The Juice is Loose."
Hate when they do that to an otherwise brave and compelling character because it does feel to me the author is trying to slide in a last minute note that they weren’t all they thought they were 
Fortunately it’s nowhere near enough to cause problems here so yes to Arianna.
Vile can you trim that back?
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
I'm less irritated at that and more irritated that her death scene is more or less "Hi, I'm Coltrane. Bang. U ded now."
Fuck it, if he finds her because the plot needed him to and that’s how he takes her down: I’m cutting her slack. Similar to Schneizel from Code Geass when we get to that one, if the main character gets to pull some bullshit to stop them, I’m not inclined to take the writing’s intent so seriously.
I try:
Battlefield Hardline: Captain Julian Dawes is the secret charismatic leader of the underground network of corruption within the city. Seeing the battle between criminals and the police as a hopeless battle that kill too many innocents, Dawes created the group of corrupt cops, who would make deals with various drug lords, offering them protection in exchange for them swearing truce and stopping the conflicts on the streets. After Nick Mendoza proved himself to be uncorruptable and picked on his trail, Dawes efforetlesly manipulates him to find and hand him over all the evidence that implicates Dawes' organisation and then frames him for corruption instead. Three years later Dawes has fully taken over Miami's criminal underground and created his own army, called Preferred Outcomes. Starting to expand his influence in Los Angeles, Dawes found out that recently freed Nick Mendoza, along with the former detective Khai Minh Dao and the former criminal Tyson Latchford killed most of his associates in the city. Predicting that the heroes would try to steal all his money, Dawes moved them away to his island and set his vault to explode if it was forced open, a trick that badly injured Tyson. Inviting Nick Mendoza to his base, Dawes offered him a high position in his organization and when Nick decided to murder him, through his letter Dawes reveals that he knew that would happen and reveals to him the location to his vault, where all his money were, letting him decide what he wanted to do with it.
to Arianna
"The Juice is Loose."
I cut this from O Brother, Where Art Thou?:
- Magnificent Bastard: Pappy O'Daniel taking advantage of the protagonists' band to rebuild his political career.
Now it's been years since I have watched the movie. But I don't remember him doing anything that clever.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Agreed: yeah to Dawes.