During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Well then:
- The Illusionist: Eduard Abramovich grew up a peasant boy enthralled with magic and in love with the Duchess Sophie von Teschen until they were forced apart due to their class differences. Becoming the magician "Eisenheim the Illusionist", he meets Sophie again as an adult, and learns she is betrothed to the abusive Crown Prince, Leopold. Enacting a scheme to fake her death and have her escape to the countryside, Eisenheim begins planting evidence implicating Leopold for murder while swiftly outplaying the police. Leaving Leopold unable to prove his innocence, the Prince kills himself to avoid shame, while Eisenheim makes off to live happily with Sophie.
Alright, have a post here now...and yes to that one, 43.
What's the work?
Knightfall is a history channel drama recounting the end of the Knights Templar in the early 1300s. King Philip IV rules France, unaware his wife, Joan of Navarre is having an affair with his best friend Landry of the Templars....problems in France run deep and behind Philip's throne is our candidate today..his ruthless chancellor, Guillaume/William de Nogaret.
Who is de Nogaret?
From humble beginnings, de Nogaret's faith was shattered as a boy when his parents, Cathar heretics, were arrested and burnt for heresy while he was raised by his uncle. The priest who lit the blaze later became the pope. De Nogaret fought and schemed through a backstabbing court to win the ear of King Philip....in order to settle the Crown's debts and keep up Philip's power, de Nogaret resorts to ruthless means...when Philip protests just confiscating the property, de Nogaret has several murders committed by agents pretending to be Jews, forcing Philip to exile the Jews from Paris, while confiscating the property. De Nogaret also isn't averse to having pesky witnesses taken care of, though the Templars defend them...
now, de Nogaret also maintains a deep care for Philip's daughter Isabella, somewhere between love and lust and frequently spies on her. Seeing her in bed with Prince Lluis of Navarre, her betrothed against his wishes...de Nogaret wishes her to be engaged to Edward of England so France has England as an ally in time of need and believes Navarre is far, far too weak. de Nogaret leaks the affair to Lluis's mother, who threatens to call off the alliance until Joan and Philip negotiate through it...and makes Isabella think Lluis bragged about sex with her. With England bearing down an threatening France, the English ambassador becomes a threat to de Nogaret...who sets up an attack on court where he poisons himself as a gambit, getting Isabella involved to murder Lluis in a pretty daring manuever...having the English ambassador abducted, de Nogaret, now healed, cheerfully explains his plot and how England will be back in France's corner, before having the man killed, noting that "If I am the target...I cannot be the perpetrator."
Things do go bad for de Nogaret after when Isabella realizes he spied on her and reveals his crimes to Philip, who tries to have him hanged. Instead his uncle saves him and de Nogaret is forced into hiding...only to return to Philip in pure audacity by sneaking intot he palace and informing him Joan is having an affair and her baby isn't his to set him against the Templars and secure his place again. de Nogaret is welcomed back into the fold, and Philip slides further and further into monstrosity, even murdering a pregnant Joan in front of Landry.
De Nogaret has Philip use Templars for some of the crimes to frame the others, manipulating events with the Templars to trap and destroy them...but as Philip grows increasingly horrible, it comes out into him abusing de Nogaret more and more...de Nogaret manages to also contrive to have the power of the church broken in France, ending by him gaining revenge on the pope by throttling him and snapping his neck in revenge for his parents.
In the finale, Philip's son Louis is sick of his father, and Landry manages to double back with all the guards hunting him...Louis, having learned Philip killed his mother and is also responsible for the death of Louis' wife elects not to defend his father. De Nogaret shrugs and tells Philip "as you reminded me....I am worthless." Before telling Louis "The King is dead. Long live the king!"
...and leaving Philip to his fate, having just secured himself as the loyal servitor of the new king of france.
How's he operate?
De Nogaret is the best manipulator in the series, and his "Poison myself" gambit is the best in series. He also doesn't let anything as silly as 'morals' stand in his way. Now, I should note...de Nogaret isn't a bigot or antisemite. He's basically an atheist who has no faith in anything but power or the throne, but he has no problem taking advantage of antisemitism solely because it strengths the throne. He manipulates the fall of the Templars, and while Isabella does turn on him....he manages to go from a fugitive wanted for the murder of a prince to...the trusted chancellor again. de Nogaret is epic at turning anything to his advantage and nobody else in Knightfall even comes close.
Is he a bastad? Too much?
De Nogaret puts the entire Jewish population at risk and has them expelled from France (as he puts it to Philip, it's to protect them)...he's partially responsible for the Templars being wiped out and oh yeah, he contrives to get Isabella to murder the wholly innocent Lluis as "fuck Navarre, we need england." Now, his thing for Isabella is a touch creepy, as he clearly lusts for her, but...she's one of the only things on the planet he truly cares for. He never makes a move to touch her against her will and believes what he does is best for her.
And for all his crimes, de Nogaret loved his parents and avenges them against the Pope. He loves his uncle and everything he does is for France first and foremost. True he helps himself, but his patriotism and his belief that he does best for his own nation is 100 percent genuine.
Conclusion?
He does skirt the bastard line, but I'd say keep him
Unfortunately I'm going to have to
to de Nogaret, having watched the show I agree he's the best in the series and his poison gambit is pretty brilliant, but his spying on Isabella is just portrayed as a bit to creepy, especially as its implied at one point he's been doing so since she was a child.
Plus to my recollection a lot of his plans go wrong (at least during the first half of season one).
Edited by MGD107 on May 1st 2020 at 8:32:19 AM
His plans go off without a hitch until Isabella turns on him....and then he bounces back good
And Isabella only asks that. De Nogaret never confirms it (and actually denies it), while never making a move on her, or trying anything inappropriate. His feelings for her are. Keep in mind Isabella wasn't exactly in a proper frame of mind at the time.
Gonna be backing Lighty here. We can’t just assume he was spying on her as a child, we’ll need something a little harder than that. As for his plans? An MB can have losses and if they’re in frequent contest with other plotters, they should have losses, lest they run the risk of being seen a Villain Sue, if he holds it together and comes close or well enough off in the end, I’m not holding that against him.
Also, I should note de Nogaret's feelings for Isabella run into creepy at times as an adult, but he's protective of her and she's the only person he really seems to love beyond his uncle. He does seem to want the best for her, albeit the best as he decides it.
I can't say he's ever portrayed as a pedophile or lusting after a child.
Really? I see remember him trying a number of plans during the first half that didn't work, such as trying to assassinate to Pope which was foiled by the Navarreans.
Still I suppose your right, things start to go a lot better for him after that.
And yeah, your right its never confirmed if he really was.
But I'm going to stick by
, it just came across as a tad to obsessive and creepy. Its one of the things I'm glad the second season dropped.
I get what your saying, I'd honestly like to vote him up as he's a clear highlight of the show. But for me its just a bit to much to ignore.
Edited by MGD107 on May 1st 2020 at 8:37:14 AM
TBH, I think the second season dropping it is more a sign in his favor, but your vote is yours.
Overall, de Nogaret is one guy trying to navigate multiple power factions. He has to deal against multiple monarchs and try to keep ahead. While some of his plans don't always work, he makes the best work when it counts and constantly puts himself ahead through setbacks...for instnace, while he doesnt assassinate the pope, he manages to arrange it so he gets to kill him personally in S2
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Eisenheim and de Nogaret.
Also, unapproved entry in YMMV.Kingdom:
- Magnificent Bastard: Well, since he lacks a goal that drives him (or at least lacks one we know of), this is very YMMV, but Kan Ki can be argued to be one. Let's see, brilliant? Check, he is good at warring and knows it. Never loses his cool? Check, he almost never stops smilling not matter what happens. Charming and charismatic? Well, not everyone in-universe would agree with this, but he is one of the series most popular characters for a reason. Audacious? Hell yes, just look at what he did during the attack at Kankoku Pass. Brave? Yes, even Chou Tou said so. Bonus points for not seemingly giving a damn about morals, just doing whatever he wants, and for being a general in charge of his own army.
Sup guys. I'm never on this thread usually, but today thanks to 43, I'm going to make an exception.
What's the work?
Sukiyaki Western Django is a film I just proposed on the CM thread, so go look there for the premise.
Who is he?
The unnamed Gunman, basically an Expy of The Man with No Name, is a quick-thinking fighter looking for gold.
What does he do?
As a child, the Gunman saw his parents die, looking at their hanging bodies. Riding into the unnamed town as an adult against an old man's orders, the Gunman is confronted by the Heike clan and the Genji clan. The Heike offer him half the gold should he join them, but the Genjis offer everything. The Gunman decides to instead side with retired assassin Ruriko (formerly the Bloody Benten) after she points out how dumb both sides are. The Genjis try and attack, but the Gunman puts them in their place with his fast reflexes.
After hearing that Shizuka, the mute boy Heihachi's mother, was forced to become a prostitute for the Genji clan, the Gunman straddles into their saloon to free her. The Gunman gets into a fistfight with one of Yoshitsune's men and knocks his teeth out. His skills are so good, that Yoshitsune desires to fight him, seeing him as a worthy opponent, and the second coming of the Bloody Benten. After getting info from Shizuka that the Genjis are bringing in a secret weapon, the Gunman writes a special message for the Heike's Sheriff that Shizuka brings to him. In the message, the Gunman states that the Genjis have a special weapon (a giant Gatling gun) on their hands, and that the Heikes should "bushwhack" their wagons under the threat of death.
With the Heikes out of the way, the Gunman tries to free Shizuka, but is caught by Yoshitsune. After escaping his gunfire (Yoshitsune tries to kill him from the bottom floor by shooting underneath the Gunman's room, but the Gunman just rolls out of the way) with Shizuka and jumping on his horse from the top floor, it appears that they're in the clear... but unfortunately she dies by the hands of Yoichi, Yoshitsune's right hand man. The Gunman at this point is wounded by Yoichi, and couldn't save her since the bastard promised the death of Heihachi should he interfere. Yoichi's taken care of, and the Gunman's all healed thanks to the village elder. The Gunman leaves to "settle a score" with the clans, refusing to believe that the meaning of life is just "shit happens." He ain't gonna run from "the shit anymore."
Collaborating on Ruriko's plan on her plan to take down the clans by placing the town's gold in the middle of town, both the Gunman and Ruriko proceed to massacre the two clans together using their awesome gun skills. Unfortunately, Ruriko and her husband are killed by the Sheriff of all people, but he's taken care of by the village elder. All that's left is the Gunman and Yoshitsune. And suddenly, heavy snow. Yoshitsune pulls out a katana and starts slicing through the Gunman's bullets. The Gunman blocks his sword slash with his revolver and holds him in place. It looks like curtains for the Gunman... until, out from his free sleeve, he whips out a little derringer. And puts it right in Yoshitsune's face. Before Yoshitsune can say a single word, the Gunman pulls the trigger and watches as the Genji leader dies in the snow.
At Ruriko's grave, the Gunman takes only a handful of the gold and leaves it the entire chest to the village elder and Heihachi, promising him that if he ever wants to become a gunman like his grandma, he can stop at any time he likes, but be warned, as there's no running away from the dangers of the world. "Decide for yourself what tomorrow's going to be." The speech moved Heihachi so much, he begins to talk again. The Gunman rides away on his horse, having set a bright future for Heihachi, who apparently "made his way to Italy and was known as a man named Django."
Yeah, don't ask.
Is he charming? Intelligent? Able to think on his feet?
I would say so, yeah. He's a fast drawing gunman, can best any other character is a duel, and while being unable to save poor Shizuka may put him down a peg, he easily makes up for it by playing the greedy Genjis and Heike clans together, summoning both sides with the chest of gold and taking them all out with the help of Ruriko and her husband Toshiro. The duel with Yoshitsune at the end pretty much cements this, showing him to be a quick thinker with a literal trick up his sleeve should the going get rough.
Is he a bastard?' Too much of one?
Kind of. He's not afraid to murder, and could care less about anybody in the village except for those in danger like Shizuka. Granted, he did get a blowjob from Shizuka (with her consent mind you) while talking with her in her room, so he's definitely not afraid to get down and dirty even on a mission. He frequently pits the clans against each other, uncaring for their deaths because of how awful both sides are.
The competition?
Rukiro's a pretty clever woman on her own, but I don't know about her. It was her plan to use the gold to summon the two clans together, but that's pretty much it. The Gunman's actions have more screen time. Yoshitsune, unfortunately, doesn't count, since he at one point rapes Shizuka, which is an automatic DQ.
Verdict?
I believe he does count. A true Anti-Hero at heart who isn't afraid to get messy and play sides against each other for the sake of profit, but still a kind enough soul to help those in need.
It's Spooky Month!So while a goal/drive certainly helps, there seems to be a big misconception about what a Chessmaster is here: it just means you can play events to your favour, basically a non-person analogue to Manipulative Bastard. Vincent's goal is to complete assassinations he's been assigned and that doesn't disqualify him; Stillwell just wants to continue the Vought's operations and that doesn't bump him; Satoshi just means to keep his gang at the top of the food chain in Diamandra and we keep him. If you can set things up so actions fall in your favour, you meet the planning aspect of this trope, Visionary Villain is not a prerequisite trope.
Edit: Glad I corrupted you into coming over Jackie and a hearty yes to the movie's answer to Blondie.
Edited by 43110 on May 1st 2020 at 12:00:36 PM

Definite
to Eisenheim. Great movie. I was considering him myself.
In the same vein, I know Angier from The Prestige counts, but what about the Borden twins?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 30th 2020 at 8:19:22 AM