During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Having played the game,
to Dogen.
Well I'm looking over the pending ~miraculous ~Men In Grey To Blak can I get your stuff? It's been pending for a while now? Message me if you need help.
Thanks 43110 for this.
Sherlock Holmes and Doctor Was Not: In "Curtain Call" by J. Scherpenhuizen, Dr. Johann Faustus returns from hell, acting as Satan's emissary on Earth and aids Sherlock Holmes in taking down James Moriarty to consolidate his own criminal empire. Taking the alias Dr. Hieronymus Mabuse, he hypnotizes a man into believing he committed the murder and later manipulates him into killing Moriarty and himself. Revealing to Holmes his true nature "Mabuse" sees he escape karmic punishment while being the true mastermind behind the Great Detective's victory.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."As per Mir's suggestion and since I have no doubt we'll get more of these here's a Holmes tree (sorting by publication date):
- Sherlock Holmes works, by publication date:
- A Study in Emerald: "Rache" is the murderer of prince Franz Drago, a revolutionary seeking to tear down the Great Old Ones. Rache lures the prince into a trap by promising him a girl to feed upon, whereupon Drago is led to Rache's partner to be murdered. When the detective of the story tracks Rache down under the alias Sherry Varnet, Rache easily deduces his true identity and eludes capture, throwing the country into uproar while he simply hides in the rookery of St. Giles where the police don't dare tread. While ruthless, Rache is dedicated to the defeat of the Old Ones, being in actuality the detective Sherlock Holmes as an anarchist in this dark world.
- Moriarty: Professor James Moriarty turned to a life of crime after being appalled at the stupidity and lack of organization of London's criminal underworld, amassing many followers. When American crime lord Clarence Devereux tried to take over his organization, turning Moriarty's followers against him, Moriarty faked his death at the Reichenback Falls and adopted the identity of American detective Fredrick Chase in order to gain Scotland Yard's assistance. In the novel proper, Moriarty, as Chase, manages to lead Athelney Jones and the rest of Scotland Yard to Devereux without Jones even realizing it, and when Devereux is finally caught, Moriarty reveals his true identity, kills Jones, and escapes with Devereux. At a wide-open park, Moriarty reveals to Devereux that he intends on taking over America's criminal underworld since England's is no longer a possibility. Combining an intellect to match Holmes' with a healthy dose of ruthlessness, Moriarty shows why he is labeled as the "Napoleon of crime".
- Sherlock Holmes and Doctor Was Not: In "Curtain Call" by J. Scherpenhuizen, Dr. Johann Faustus returns from hell, acting as Satan's emissary on Earth and aids Sherlock Holmes in taking down James Moriarty to consolidate his own criminal empire. Taking the alias Dr. Hieronymus Mabuse after killing him, he hypnotizes a man into believing he committed the murder and later manipulates him into killing Moriarty and himself. Revealing to Holmes his true nature, "Mabuse" sees he escapes karmic punishment while being the true mastermind behind the Great Detective's victory.
Thoughts?
Removed this from YMMV.The Illusionist:
- Magnificent Bastard: Eisenheim is a nice version (debatably), but really, can you call him anything else after the Gambit Roulette? By the looks of Uhl's expression, he's probably thinking the same thing.
Judging by the trope page(I'm a sucker for spoilers), he does seem like he'd be an easy keeper, but I haven't actually seen the movie. Does anybody wanna way in?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midRemoved this from Dallas’s YMMV page:
- Magnificent Bastard: J.R. Ewing, naturally. For all intents and purposes, he's a quintessential Trope Codifier for American television.
and this from the So You Want To page:
- J.R. Ewing, of Dallas: Before Lionel Luthor's fans truly brought the term into the public consciousness, J.R. was the undisputed Trope Codifier for the character type that would later gain the title "Magnificent Bastard"—and to be honest, he still may be: as befits only the most Magnificent of Bastards, he became the show's Breakout Character, overshadowing the intended protagonists. (Take note: J.R. is the prime example of a true Magnificent Bastard actually succeeding as the main character! As the "Treat With Caution" section below indicates, that is really hard to pull off....) The quintessential "villain you Love to Hate". A Corrupt Corporate Executive who delights in the manipulation of others to secure his power base. The Chessmaster, and isn't afraid to revel in it. He anticipates business associates double-crossing him: "I'd have been disappointed if that thought hadn't crossed your mind, already!" His actions have constantly enraged the more "moral" characters in the show, often making their lives so much harder—to the point where, when we got to the immortal "Who Shot J.R.?" storyline...part of the thrill was that anyone could have had a viable motive! And yet, he's charming as heck, always classy, quite the Gentleman Snarker, and in his own way, rather likable. He also has his share of Pet the Dog moments, too: he does stick up for his more moral brother, Bobby—and he loves his son, John Ross...mentoring him in the TNT relaunch in how to be a true Magnificent Bastard, repeatedly expressing his pride in John taking the lessons to heart: "Now that's my son...from tip to tail." He even molded his own death before-the-fact into part of an intricate plan that he predicted would be his "masterpiece"—and it arguably is, achieving a final, permanent defeat of his greatest nemesis.
I do think JR is an easy keeper(haven't seen it either, just know of his reputation), so why would you remove it from the how to page instead of %%?
Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 30th 2020 at 7:29:17 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midSince J mentioned it:
What's the work?
The Illusionist opens with the stage magician Eisenheim being arrested during a show by the police Inspector Uhl. As the Inspector begins talking to the Austrian Crown Prince Leopold—who had ordered Eisenheim's arrest—we start getting some details on the magician. Now then, our candidate.
Who is Eisenheim? What has he done?
His past reveals him as a boy named Eduard Abramovich with an interest in magic and charmer who caught the eye of the young Duchess Sophie von Teschen. Ordered apart due to his family's low class background, they saw each other in secret until Eduard was threatened with the arrest of his family lest he leave her: leading to him travelling the world and adopting the name Eisenheim the Illusionist.
Returning to Vienna and growing up to become Edward Norton, Eisenheim catches the eye of Leopold and Sophie (now set to be Leopold's wife) at a magic show and later humiliates Leopold after he antagonizes Eisenheim using a sword trick at a party. Later that night, Eisenheim and Sophie rendevouz, having sex and she reveals Leopold intends to marry her for political leverage to become King of Hungary and overthrow his father the Emperor. Beginning his plot, Eisenheim gives Sophie a large amount of cash and makes a point of being seen with her to draw Leopold's attention, before having her tell the angry prince she'll leave him while he's drunk, seemingly leading to Leopold killing her.
Joining the search party looking for her and having his friend pose as the royal family's physician so she can be pronounced dead and flee, Eisenheim begins playing the part of a grieving man as he conducts plays themed around bringing the dead back to life. Gaining such a following that before getting off arrest for fraud he has to announce to the crowd demanding he be released that his ghosts are illusionary before they'll stop surrounding the police station. Going on to plant evidence for Uhl to believe Leopold killed Sophie, Leopold breaks down as his father's guards come to arrest him and kills himself. As Eisenheim leaves Vienna by train to meet up with the very much alive Sophie, Uhl smiles as he pieces it together and the couple go off to live a new life together.
How do her actions and personality show he is a Magnificent Bastard?
Eisenheim is very much a suave, cultured gentleman and his plan goes off without a hitch, playing the police, populace and prince to see the exact results he wants. For added style points he even conjures up silver coins for children who come begging to him.
Mitigating factors?
While the film might have intended for him to be a Guile Hero, there are a few sketchy things about him. While his friend mentions Leopold has been known to beat women he's been with and may have killed one, Eisenheim does no further digging and his plot is a somewhat selfish one, with his only concern being his and Sophie's happiness.
Furthermore, he terrifies civilians with his ghost tricks, has an officer roughed up for trying to find out the secrets of his illusions and creates a pariah of the—admittedly asshole—prince for a crime he didn't actually commit, causing loads of civil unrest.
Verdict?
Pretty straightforward keeper.
Eisenheim.
Would you go so far as to call him a Designated Hero/MB crossover?
Honestly, I think that DH/MB crossovers are far more likely than DH/CM crossovers, so long as they have the charisma to back it up. I will note that the other known DH crossover, Jaka is still one of the more interesting, and compelling, characters in his work, precisely because he is a designated hero.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 30th 2020 at 10:38:04 AM
Yes. I think this was absolutely an accidental example of this trope and a great lesson in how the presence of an MB isn't necessarily a good thing.
Definitely one I had to detach myself a bit from to just say "Well the bulk of audiences seem to be entertained by this."
Edited by 43110 on Apr 30th 2020 at 10:36:59 AM

to Dogen
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff