During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Rau Le Creuset... wait wrong villain. Yes to Ralph.
Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 17th 2020 at 2:10:03 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
- Str.A.In.: Strategic Armored Infantry: Ralph Werec is the brother of heroine Sara Werec and second-in-command to Captain Vivian Medlock. After discovering that the Union was carrying out horrific experiments on the alien Emilies, a disillusioned Ralph defected from the Union to the Deague, and begins by leading an attack on a Union academy and killing everyone inside. Fighting against his revenge-seeking sister Sara, Ralph leads the Deague in fighting the Union and shows himself to be their greatest threat. Feigning loyalty to the Deague and seducing Vivian to get her and her soldiers on his side, he eventually reveals that he was using them all and betrays Vivian, hijacking the security system to kill her. Revealing that he despises both sides of the war and considers them equally corrupt, Ralph carries out his plan to Kill All Humans as revenge for their sins. Yet, despite opposing her, he loves Sara and explains his motivation to her in hopes that she will join him; when she refuses and defeats him in the final battle, he accepts that he went too far and gives her a tearful, heartfelt goodbye.
Did this guy in the CM thread, loved him, I'm gonna bring him over for a crossover here.
What's the setting?
F-Zero: Legend of Falcon is the 51-episode anime adaptation of the F-Zero series we all know and love. Controversial among the fanbase due to the various ways the series plays fast-and-loose with continuity (some baffling cases of Adaptational Villainy, for starters) but an indisputably fun series with a lot of heart put into it. Our premise features Ryu Suzaku, a time-displaced cop who awakens one-hundred-and-fifty years in the future after a tangle with a criminal named Zoda lands him in cryosleep. Ryu joins the Mobile Task Force, the police in a universe where F-Zero races are absolutely everything, learning by the side of his mysterious mentor Captain Falcon.
Our main villain is the closest thing the games themselves had to a Big Bad...Black Shadow.
Who is Black Shadow? What has he done?
Black Shadow is a man with a dream. A simple dream; a dream of Evil, pure and unfiltered. Voiced deliciously by Norio Wakamoto, Black Shadow is the ever-grinning, ever-cackling mastermind behind the Dark Million organization. Black Shadow seems to be the usual inactive Orcus on His Throne-type villain for the first chunk of the series, but as time goes on it becomes Black Shadow is not only capable of regularly getting off his ass and into his F-Zero machine—the Black Bull—to personally kick some ass, he's also a chessmaster who for fifty straight episodes is manipulating every single character in the series exactly to his plan.
Black Shadow, in his hunt for powerful devices, has planned in advance for everything. Ryu Suzaku and Captain Falcon have Reactor Mights that power their F-Zero machines? That's alright—Black Shadow has two in his. His treacherous right-hand Zoda always attempts to murder him? Black Shadow laughs off his attempts, even letting Zoda think he's killed him only to pop up unharmed later just for the purpose of fucking with him. Black Shadow even disguises himself as two totally unrelated people, the successful businessman Don Genie, and the enigmatic racer Deathborn (who kicked around Black Shadow in the video games), fooling everyone until the last minute. Every time the heroes try and do anything, Black Shadow is always two steps ahead of them, winning races, tricking the others out of Reactor Mights and punctuating it always with a Norio Wakamoto Evil Laugh. Every seeming loss in stride and Just as Planned.
And yes, when it turns out Black Shadow has planned for everything, we mean everything, as far back as one-hundred-and-fifty-years. Black Shadow was responsible for everything that put Ryu into cryosleep, responsible for brainwashing his girlfriend into Miss Killer, and even created Zoda. Not a single thing goes wrong for Black Shadow as he manipulates his way into the clutches of all the Reactor Mights, using them to power up a device that will destroy the galaxy and replace it with a world of brilliant evil: his dream come true. Captain Falcon is forced to sacrifice himself to stop the reactor and does so in the most epic fucking way possible
, Falcon Punching Black Shadow into the depths of his reactor in an explosion so epic it covers an eighth of the galaxy. Holy shit, that's a way to go.
What's his competition like?
Black Shadow? Competition? Hahahahahaha
.
The only other villains in the series that aren't his minions are his alternate identities, and nobody on the heroes side ever really manages to outwit him, so...
Is he too much of a bastard?
Only sticking point given Black Shadow is a Complete Monster and possibly one of the single hammiest we have on record, but I'm honestly not that worried. He's a Card-Carrying Villain extraordinaire whose motivations are "I love being evil"—but goddammit, he does it in a way that's so grandiloquent and so bombastic it's impossible to consider it as too disgusting or heinous for the trope.
F-Zero is a kid's show, which means Black Shadow is kind of being graded on the same curve as characters like DCAU!Darkseid or Wraith who managed to clinch CM and MB at the same time, and I'd argue Black Shadow doesn't go quite as far to salt the wounds as either of those two. His most sadistic deed is the stunt he pulls with Ryu's girlfriend—that's awful, but it's nowhere near the worst thing an MB has done, and the bulk of his CM qualification is based off his Omnicidal Maniac plot, which is so over-the-top it loops right around to being "magnificent" for me.
So, your mileage may very given Black Shadow's only real "redeeming qualities" are his Villainous Valor and just how goddamned cool he is, but honestly, I think that's enough.
How does he operate?
This is why I'm pushing to see Black Shadow on the trope. Black Shadow is Pure Evil, no ifs or buts about that, but he operates with style. He's exceptionally more brilliant and more ruthless than his video game counterpart and every second he's onscreen he defines Evil Is Cool.
It could've been so easy to write Black Shadow as just this non-entity Orcus on His Throne who watches from afar. Except no—the show is always, always making a deal about Black Shadow being two steps ahead of every single person in the show. He is perpetually unflappable, Faux Affably Evil to a tee, responds to adversity with a laugh and a grin while always, always finding a way to rebound from every loss. The one thing he really loses his cool is during the big finale, and even then given Black Shadow dies Defiant to the End (and the nature of his death is as awesome as he is) I'm not inclined to hold that against him.
Conclusion?
Anime!Black Shadow is one of those weird cases where really a two-dimensional villain is being written as an incredibly badass, incredibly competent chessmaster. It's halfway Norio's godly performance and half the sheer presence the show gives him, but I'm saying "keep him."
Edited by Scraggle on Apr 17th 2020 at 3:49:54 AM
I found a couple of unapproved Magnificent Bastard potholes on Eccentric Mentor. I removed them and replaced them with more appropriate potholes, but here's what was there.
First, a mention that Captain Aizen from Bleach is one:
- Bleach: Kisuke Urahara, the self-described "mere honest, handsome, perverted businessman." But don't let his sanguine disposition, odd dress-sense or shameless self-promotion fool you; beneath it all lurks the soul of a true badass. A former Shinigami Captain and founder of the Soul Society Research Institute, Kisuke became a legend in the Seireitei after mastering Bankai — a powerful attack which usually takes decades of study to learn — in only three days (this record has only been surpassed by the main character who achieved bankai in two-and-a-half days). The catalyst and driving force behind the plot, it is widely believed by fans that the entire series is merely one grand game of Gambit Roulette played between him and his Magnificent Bastard rival, Captain Aizen.
Second, a reference to Team Skull from Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers:
- Guildmaster Wigglytuff, in the Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers games is a lovable Cloud Cuckoo Lander who has an obession with Perfect Apples...who is completely immune to the poisonous gas attack of Team Skull and can make the earth tremble with his voice alone when angry or sad.
And finally, Yukari Yukomo from Touhou:
- Yukari Yakumo from Touhou sleeps for 12 hours a day, hibernates through winter, spends her waking time seemingly just messing around with people, doing things that only make sense to herself, and has a philosophy that appears to be based upon some kind of Taoism as (mis)interpreted by a member of The Fair Folk. She's also The Archmage of Onmyoudo, a Magnificent Bitch who manipulates other masterminds into doing her bidding, a Yōkai with powers that undermines the very foundations of reality and a Trickster Mentor who, if she decides that you need to be competent at something, will whip you into the shape of a grandmaster on the subject... just bear in mind that if Yukari takes time out of her day to be your mentor, she needs you to be good at something for her purposes and you've officially been promoted to the position of her latest Unwitting Pawn.
I'm unfamiliar with Bleach and Touhou, so others can weigh in there. But Team Skull definitely do not qualify. They're basically a bunch of greedy bullies who pick on people weaker than them and get their asses kicked anytime they're up against someone they underestimated.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Black Shadow.
Yukari... dunno, each game tends to have an Excuse Plot, so that might limit her chances. Though there is a fanfic version on my todo list.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.Aizen does some horrific things but he didn't rape anyone as far as I know. I think he may have Mind Rape people though.

Sure on Ralph