During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I’m shock that Khan and Kleiss have never been EP since they are very memorable and charismatic villains and I extremely hope that they do get EP sooner than later
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 14th 2020 at 11:38:07 PM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff@ futuremoviewriter, frankly I do not like Kelvin Universe Khan. Into Darkness being a bad film does not help. By the end of the film Khan wants to commit genocide against anyone who is not a genetically modified superhuman and considering Khan only has 80 genetically modified superhumans as his followers, that is both immoral and stupid. Also I think Benedict Cumberbatch was miscasted as Khan, lacking the gravitas Ricardo Montalbán brought to the role. Kelvin Khan also lacks the great dialogue Prime Khan had, he never quotes Melville like Prime Khan does.
I do not think Kelvin Khan counts and I have no desire to rewatch Into Darkness. But if Lighty claimed Prime Khan, that is fine. I did not mean to step on his toes.
Edited by Overlord on Apr 15th 2020 at 6:05:22 AM
@ Overlord, I'm with you... couldn't stand Benedict!Khan and he was way too genocidal for this trope—we've allowed on with exceptions like Billy Butcher but the work should be putting some effort into explaining why the character isn't a bigot—also did you input the edits you wanted for the Q shortening I gave you and can you post it on the drafts?
I actually don't like either Khan or the films where he's the villain. But that doesn't mean I think the original doesn't count though. As I can put aside my personal bias and see that he could. But yeah in no way does the remake one count.
Edited by Bullman on Apr 15th 2020 at 9:36:38 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread![]()
There could be a fourth Kelvin movie, simply because Paramount does not have a lot of big franchises in their library to make movies from (they are the weakest of the major movie studios at the moment):
https://trekmovie.com/2020/04/06/jeff-russo-gives-update-on-noah-hawleys-star-trek-movie/
Regardless, it's pretty hard to undo Kelvin Khan being a genocidal asshole at this point and I do not think audiences are in a hurry to see Kelvin Khan again (heck I think using Khan again was a mistake).
Also, I finished Star Trek Picard a couple of weeks and I think most of the villains are too straight forward to count. Most of the villains are Well-Intentioned Extremist types, but I do not find their schemes overly complex, the main villain Commodore Oh masterminds a terrorist attack on Mars that kills over 90,000 people so the Federation bans artificial life (she also hampers their efforts to save 900 million Romulans from a supernova), but we do not see how she does it and I do not find Oh an overly likable villain.
Edited by Overlord on Apr 15th 2020 at 8:56:47 AM
I think the 2009 film and Beyond are both great. Into Darkness is definitely the weakest, but I still really enjoyed it though and don’t have the same problems as others do. I do hope they’ll make another even though both Leonard Nimoy and Anton Yelchin will not be coming back unfortunately.
I remember thinking Khan Prime and Into Darkness Khan would be EP ed together, but I forgot that one is not the younger version of the other, he exists in a different universe.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 15th 2020 at 9:23:07 AM
Here is a revised Q write up:
- Star Trek: The Next Generation: Q is a clever transcendent being who masquerades as a rambunctious psychopath and tries to join the Enterprise Crew after being kicked out of the Q Continuum, demonstrating his powers by teleporting the Enterprise across the galaxy. Forcing the Enterprise to confront the terrifying Borg and for Jean-Luc Picard to beg for Q's help, Q saves them out of respect for Picard's humility. After the Q Continuum strips him of his powers, Q asked to be teleported to the Enterprise, knowing that Picard's nobility will force Picard to protect him against his various enemies. After regaining his powers Q uses his gifts on Picard to let him change his past so a series of events will allow him to avoid an untimely death, though at the cost of not being as highly-promoted within the Federation, in order to teach him the importance of learning from mistakes and taking risks. In his final appearance in the series, Q is tasked by the Continuum to destroy humanity, but Q does so in a way that Picard can prevent, where Picard creates a time paradox when Q shifts him through time and Q provides hints to Picard to resolve the paradox and save humanity.
Edited by Overlord on Apr 15th 2020 at 10:18:29 AM
Looks great Overlord as we discussed! You can put the potholes back in, I just don’t write with them. He’s over 200 words so he can have up to eight and Troll or The Trickster seem like they might be good ones if you wanna tag his name, though I don’t know the work well enough to say for sure.
I wasn’t gonna put this up, but 43 said it was okay since the thread is slow today.
I'm not highly confident in this, but I still want to attempt it anyway. And no, it is not Melanie because she is definitely not this.
What is the work?
Fantasy Island is the 2020 film adaptation of the classic 1977 TV series produced by Blumhouse (because yeah, those go together) about guests on a mystical island who through the magic of the island are each granted their most desired fantasy, only for it to usually turn to Be Careful What You Wish For and Reality Ensues induced scenarios that make the person more content with their life when they've gotten through it and things go back to normal. Being as Blumhouse apparently didn't learn their lesson with Jem and the Holograms or Truth or Dare (have not seen either of those movies at this time), the Horror approach to this film is an odd choice (though maybe not because I still haven't seen the show).
Who is he and what has he done?
Mr. Roarke is the very friendly man who runs the island and arranges for the guests to have their fantasies by means of drinking the island's fountain water. It turns out he himself got a fantasy too: his wife Julia being brought back to life. Unfortunately, he continues to cater to whatever the guests want to keep Julia alive (who is only ever exactly the way she was on the day that they met due to his use of Exact Words). Having learned of what the island can do, the volatile and dangerous Melanie Cole approaches Roarke about initiating her revenge fantasy on those she deems responsible for the death of Nick Taylor, a man she went out with once. Wanting to not deny Melanie so he can keep his wife, Roarke agrees to what she wants.
Roarke also has Sloane Maddison (a girl who mistreated Melanie in high school) abducted by his men too not only as part of Melanie's larger revenge scheme, but to attribute to Melanie's cover that she is only there for revenge against Sloane. Roarke has the dungeon where Sloane is to be tortured set up and Melanie heads down there to do it personally. Roarke brings brothers J.D. and Brax Weaver to a party site that they wanted to own, only for them to be targeted by drug lords and J.D. to be killed. While Melanie pretends to play a victim the same as Sloane, Sloane is pursued by a torture technician cooked up by the island and an investigator they come across named Damon ends up killed in the process. A rescue plane is also blown up too when it arrives to save everyone.
Patrick Sullivan is also abducted by soldiers as part of his own fantasy too and Gwen Olsen when personally asking Roarke if she can change her fantasy of saying yes to her boyfriend so they can get married and have a daughter to one where she would save her neighbor who died in a fire she accidentally set, Roarke denies her at first. That said, when she prompts him again, he agrees to the change and Gwen almost dies in said fantasy. Once everyone rejoins and believes the only way to make everything go away is to destroy the fountain, they discover that they each had a small part in Nick's death (he was Gwen's neighbor) and that Melanie was behind everything all along.
Roarke at first leaves them all to be killed by Melanie's fantasies, but talked out of it by Julia, he accepts her death and then prompts Sloane to drink the water for a fantasy that will stop Melanie. Melanie attempts to kill everyone with a grenade as Nick drags her down into the fountain and Patrick dies to save everyone. Roarke tells Brax he can grant his fantasy of J.D. coming back and going home to live his life, but only if Brax stays on the island to keep it going. Brax does and Roarke gives him both a job as his new personal assistant and a new nickname: "Tattoo".
Is he magnificent?
He has stumbled upon the power of the island and used it to help people. That said, it revolves around being Cruel to Be Kind with how the fantasies do not go exactly the way the guests believe they will and especially in this case where he is not doing it to get them to understand themselves better, but to sacrifice them to appease Melanie and keep his wife. It does turn to the usual use of the power for the right reasons though when he realizes he was wrong and needs to do right by the guests though. The man definitely has a suave-ness otherwise to him too. There is the matter of abducting Sloane for torture the same as the others, but eventually turning against Melanie proves himself to not be a petty or cruel individual in the slightest as he steps up in the final moment to show Melanie up.
Bastard? Too much?
Helping Melanie to cause the deaths of at least four people (I don't think he's ever made aware of Damon at all though) and to let the others be tortured to death initially too would put him in this category. He does turn against Melanie and bring about her demise though after he realizes he cannot keep Julia alive anymore. In that case, not his intention, but there is Julia being resurrected only to die and be resurrected again and while not entirely his fault, not in a way where she can function properly in body and mind. There is also bringing J.D. back to life for Brax, but it can only be done in the event that Brax stay behind and work for him. Roarke probably would have picked another way though if the option was available. That said, it is not explicit to how much Roarke knew would happen exactly the way it did, but he still knew what was supposed to happen though.
Verdict?
I'm definitely not in love with this one. I'll let you all decide.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 15th 2020 at 12:41:16 PM
'Yes' to Dushane, the Iron Demon leader, Nakago and Alex.
Here's my pending write-ups...
- How to be a Villain & The Villain's Guide to Better Living by Neil Zawacki: The unnamed author of these villainous guidebooks is a slick, witty mastermind of diabolical proportions who's singular goal is to make the reader a successful evil-doer. Unfailingly supportive and polite to the reader, the author encourages equal opportunities for all in villainous careers while promoting healthy romantic and platonic relationships alike. The author has a bevy of wicked schemes and manipulative tactics for dealing with any number of hero, sidekick, or animal companions that could thwart the reader's rise to infamy, for which the author often suggests dealing with in the bluntest, least dramatic ways possible to ensure slim chances of survival for such a heroic foe. Completely committed to the lifestyle of evil and an advocate for both self-acceptance and enlightenment, the author stands as a devilishly charming supervillain defined by genre savviness.
- Justice League: The Ultra-Humanite is an ape blessed with genius-level intellect and a great appreciation for art and human culture. Having dedicated himself to the destruction of all things tasteless and the enhancement of everything cultured, Humanite at one point halts his plan to blow up a modern art museum to help the Flash repair a popular toy meant for an orphanage and alters the originally crude toy into telling the children the story of "The Nutcracker," the event gaining the respect of the Flash. Humanite is regarded as a model prisoner every time he is captured, and he uses one of his incarcerations to team up with his Lex Luthor to create the Injustice League so as to defeat the Justice League, only to then manipulate the entire Injustice League to his own agenda and take down Luthor in exchange for Batman paying him double what Luthor was offering; Humanite uses the cash gained from this outing as a grant to his favorite TV station, the Culture Channel.
- A Perfect Murder: Steven Taylor schemes to murder his wife and get off completely scot-free as both revenge for her cheating on him, and to gain access to her trust fund worth millions. Upon discovering his wife Emily's infidelity, Steven blackmails and bribes her lover David into assisting him in killing her before creating multiple alibis for himself on the night his brilliant plan goes into motion. When David bungles the otherwise airtight plan by hiring a petty crook to kill Emily, Steven quickly and cleverly stays on top of the situation, manipulating both Emily and the police into suspecting it was a mere robbery gone wrong, and, even as David reveals he has proof of Steven's plans so as to blackmail him into paying David, Steven seemingly gives in only to murder David and get away with all of his money. Steven planned several contingencies on the chance his scheme went awry, rarely loses his cool, and even when Emily discovers the truth of his plans, it's solely because she got suspicious and guessed the combination to his safe where he had temporarily stored David's blackmail proof until he could destroy it.
And, so long as everyone is ok with it, I'd like to rewrite two entries.... they're characters that I effortposted but never got around to writing up due to my long hiatus from the threads, and though Lightysnake graciously wrote them up for me, I would like to finish what I started way back then and give them write-ups of my own.
Here are the currents:
- Batman: Under the Red Hood: Jason Todd, after his death at the hands of The Joker and his revival, becomes a much darker figure. Becoming the Red Hood, Jason sets about on his revenge, manipulating Batman, Gotham's criminal enterprises and even the League of Assassins to engineer conflicts to bring him close to the Joker and Batman. Confronting his former mentor, Jason reveals his deep bitterness at the Joker's survival, declaring he believed he would be the last person Batman ever let the Joker hurt. With a manipulative genius to rival even Batman and a hunger to see his own brutal justice enacted, Jason shows he is more than a match for the world's greatest Detective.
- Don't be a Hero by Chris Strange: Morgan "Quanta" Shepherd is a man with the power to control light. Inspired by superheroes, Shepherd ends up revolted at the world's ingratitude towards them. Fashioning himself into the supervillain Quanta, he orchestrates mass breakouts of supervillains, fashioning himself into a charismatic leader for them as he orchestrates brutal attacks and experiments with the purpose of forcing the world to realize the necessity for superheroes again. Attempting to turn the young boy Sam into a living, superpowered weapon, Quanta pulls off a major plan in a matter of days, creating a near catastrophic tragedy, all the inspire the return of heroes to stop villains like him with near perfect success.
And my rewrites:
- Batman: Under the Red Hood: The titular "Red Hood" is in truth the resurrected second Robin, Jason Todd, revived from his brutal death at the hands of the Joker and seeking both revenge and to continue his war on crime. Deciding that crime can't be stopped, merely managed, Red Hood is introduced taking control of a massive chunk of Gotham's crime bosses, showing them the heads of their lieutenants and threatening to do worse to them should they refuse his rule, Red Hood prohibits the sale of drugs to children and creates a far more organized crime syndicate while taking on the last established boss, Black Mask. Red Hood routinely outsmarts and humiliates Black Mask while simultaneously evading capture from his former mentor Batman, and soon enough, Red Hood's master plan to drive Black Mask into releasing the Joker comes to fruition. Capturing his killer, Red Hood brutalizes Joker and then confronts Batman over his no-killing rule, calling him out on not avenging Jason Todd when Joker killed him before trying to coax Batman into finishing the Joker off once and for all. Giving Batman one of the harshest moral, physical, and intellectual battles of his life, Red Hood very nearly succeeds in his schemes, and serves as a testament that Batman's more lenient methods may not be the best way to handle Gotham's crime.
- Don't be a Hero by Chris Strange: Morgan Shepherd, better known as Quanta, adored superheroes as a youth and, upon superheroes being defamed and derided by society, makes a plan to bring back the world's reliance and love for them. Assembling a team of villains he recruits through both charisma and bribery, Quanta stages prison breaks, hijacks a television station, and even allows his own capture only to then escape as part of his scheme. Quanta's final plan is to become a global threat, reviled by humankind simply so that only superheroes can take him down and bring back the "age of the hero," even as he shows disgust at some of his partners' sexually perverted and sadistic personalities. Pulling off his scheme with excellence and all while suffering from a crippling brain tumor that is slowly killing him, Quanta sets the stage for heroes to return and, noting that he's grown attached to being a villain, hopes to serve as a threat for the heroes to fight for years to come.
As we discussed, I'm not feeling it since he's got himself in a situation he's caught and forced to act accordingly. To me an MB shouldn't be such a victim of circumstances where they're left so powerless but to play along. He's charming and eventually breaks out but doesn't cut it to me.
Edit: Thank you Ravok!
Edited by 43110 on Apr 15th 2020 at 3:52:07 PM
I'll read the Fantasy Island EP later, but I personally don't think the Red Hood and Quanta rewrites are needed; I think the original writeups get across the point fine.
EDIT: Saying no to the Fantasy Island character.
Yeah, you're right. Nevermind what I said.
Edited by falcontalons on Apr 15th 2020 at 1:17:39 AM

~Overlord Lighty has Khan on his to-do list, so you might want to ask first. Should both Khans be done separately or together?