TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#17328: Apr 14th 2020 at 9:42:31 AM

[tup]Steven, Dushane.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#17329: Apr 14th 2020 at 11:06:40 AM

Out of curiosity is anyone interested in formally managing discussion dates page? I know I'm criminally negligent of keeping on top of it.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#17330: Apr 14th 2020 at 11:14:55 AM

On film, the dates should probably be changed to "TBD" due to recent events for one.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#17331: Apr 14th 2020 at 11:25:28 AM

Yes to Q, easily.

So, I've got a few candidates I have in mind to make up for some recent inactivity here. I'm going to start by revisiting an old childhood RPG. By pure coincidence, I've noticed it happens to be something of a holiday for this particular fandom—Golden Sunday (celebrating, so far as I can tell, the Western release of the series' second installment).

What's the setting?

Golden Sun from Camelot Software is a trilogy of handheld games that's become something of a cult classic over the years. For good reason—the games were damn good. In the world of Weyard, the powers of Psynergy rain supreme. Users of Psynergy become known as Adepts, specializing in one of four main elemental arts: Mars, Mercury, Jupiter and Venus. The true power of the world, Alchemy, has long been sealed away by the powers of the mystic Elemental Lighthouses, but it's said that if one were to place the Elemental Stars in these Lighthouses, that power would be unsealed in a world-changing event.

The pursuit of the Stars is thus what drives most of what happens in the ever-intricate plot, and while it's hard to govern a single Big Bad behind it all (every game has a thematic boy-girl Big Bad Duumvirate) there's one overlapping villain I think I can make a case for. Meet Alex (or Arcanus).

Who is Alex? What has he done?

Alex is the cousin of Mia, one of the central protagonists of the first two games, and a Mercury Adept of unusual talent and skill. Alex is a stoic, well-mannered man with dubious agendas who serves as the Enigmatic Minion of Saturos and Menardi, the first game's villainous duo, betraying the Mercury Clan in the process as well as his own sister. Alex's motivations or actual goal can never quite be defined at any point; almost every word Alex speaks is manipulation of some kind, and it becomes increasingly clear Alex's alliance with Saturos and Menardi is purely for self-convenience. Alex seeks to reactivate the Elemental Lighthouses, espousing it's for a good cause while hiding his own plan, at one point saving Saturos from the blade of the first game's hero Isaac.

Alex outlasts Saturos and Menardi, and for The Lost Age, continues his hunt with their old ally Felix, who becomes the protagonist of The Lost Age. Alex steps up his game from mostly standing-and-observing and starts to truly come into his own. Alex promptly betrays virtually everyone he meets from this point on, casually backstabbing his old allies to instead ally with Argatio and Karst (brother and sister of Saturos and Menardi), only to promptly turn around and save the heroes' lives at one point when he clearly could have left them to die...precisely because he needs them alive to keep using them as pawns.

Alex manipulates heroes and villains alike while at one point single-handedly curbstomping an army of honed warriors sent to stop him just as a demonstration of how far he's come from the passive Smug Snake he was in the first game. His goal throughout this is all the same—to activate the Elemental Lighthouses, so he can take the godlike power of Alchemy for himself. Alex manipulates the heroes and the villains to do his dirty work and gets them to a point where, on the top of Mt. Aleph where Felix, Isaac and the others realize Alex is pulling their strings, they've got no choice but to activate the Lighthouses anyway. Alex's victory is only prevented because he's Out-Gambitted by Mt. Aleph's guardian, the Wise One.

Even then, after seemingly being left on a collapsing mountain to die, Alex still manages to retain a good chunk of the power of Alchemy he stole and rebounds healthily from defeat. Alex, now renaming himself Arcanus, once again allies with an enemy country called Tuaparang, in a scheme to activate an ancient superweapon called the Apollo Lens...to do this, though, requires first the activation of a grisly event called the Grave Eclipse. Alex steers the heroes to exactly where he wants them to go, and even when they flatten the Tuaparang agents Blados and Chalis' asses at the Apollo Dynamo, Alex saves them and activates the Grave Eclipse.

The entire continent is plunged into a hellish darkness, leaving the heroes to deal with the ramifications of Alex's apocalyptic actions. Alex once again backstabs Blados and Chalis while helping the heroes to activate the Apollo Lens, resulting in the Grave Eclipse being dispelled...and after this, Alex is gone. Nobody knows where the hell he went or what his plan even was this time, but the heroes know things have gone exactly the way Alex planned once again.

Sadly, because it's been years since the last installment, that may very well be the end of Alex's story.

What's his competition like?

Alex runs rings around every single character in the series except for one, and that's the Wise One. The Wise One himself might honestly count on his own—I'm not really sure how much he can be excused via being Above Good and Evil when the in-universe characters call him out otherwise, and the Wise One's secret test of character (i.e. fusing the loved ones of the heroes into a dragon and then tricking said heroes into killing it—all in order to save the world, of course!) is bad enough he leaps the "bastard" part—but that remains the one time in the series Alex is ever out-manipulated and sees control of the situation taken out of his hands.

With that said, 99% of the time otherwise, including the entire game following his defeat in Lost Age, Alex doesn't have competition. He rebounds from defeat well enough I think I'm in favor of saying the one time he's outsmarted doesn't take him out.

Is he too much of a bastard?

Alex used to be listed as a Complete Monster. This isn't close to correct—he still seems to have a subdued fondness for Mia, and he has a few Pet the Dog moments in Dark Dawn such as honoring his word on a captive release at no gain to himself—but Alex is still bad, especially in Dark Dawn. The Grave Eclipse is an event that kills thousands of people, and Alex is the chief architect in orchestrating it. I think Blados and Chalis still stick out a bit worse in this regard because their reason for helping to trigger this is entirely for shits and giggles on their end. Blados and Chalis attempt to nuke their own country with the Apollo Lens while Alex—for whatever reason—helps the heroes to use it undo his apocalypse days after he's caused it.

It's hard to get a read on how bad he really is or why he does what he does, sometimes, considering how obfuscated his motives are, but while Alex is a piece of work he's not remotely the scumbag Blados and Chalis are. He passes in this department.

How does he operate?

Alex goes from "stand-and-watch while occasionally dicking with the protagonist" in the first game to "conducting vast, impressive manipulations and having everyone do my work for me while scarcely ever lifting a finger" in Lost Age and Dark Dawn. His on-the-nose manipulations sometimes toe the line of Smug Snake-ish behavior, particularly in the first game, but this trait is downplayed over time and it's almost entirely gone by the time of Dark Dawn, where he's a lot more genuinely charming and Affably Evil to extents he wasn't in previous games while still being as in-control and manipulative as he ever was.

Conclusion?

I think the only real concern with Alex is that the games being Left Hanging means a lot of Alex's motivations and end goals are still annoyingly hard to actually discern. From what we get in the trilogy, though, Alex essentially manipulates the conflict of all three games while hardly ever lifting a finger himself, and the increasing charisma and competence he's given with each game lead me to think he ultimately clinches this trope.

Edited by Scraggle on Apr 14th 2020 at 12:33:41 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#17333: Apr 14th 2020 at 11:40:58 AM

Haha, I was going to message you today to say I missed you here but now that you're back, yes to Alex, great villain!

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#17334: Apr 14th 2020 at 11:51:58 AM

[tup] Alex. Being Left Hanging doesn't deter me from saying yes to a MB. I mean, we have the G Man up. Also someone put Magnificent Bastard on his character page so I'm going to remove that.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17335: Apr 14th 2020 at 11:52:45 AM

  • Fushigi Yuugi: The brilliant, ruthless Nakago was once a boy taken by the Kutou Emperor after his tribe was destroyed. Used as a sex slave, Nakago gained the Emperor's trust and eventually became a general of Kutou. Manipulating the priestess of Seiryu, Yui, to his side and winning the loyalties of the legions of Kutou as well as his Seiryu warriors, Nakago tricks his own subordinate into killing the family of hero Tamahome and often stays a step well ahead of the heroes. Eventually overcoming the Emperor and launching a coup that makes him ruler of Kutou, Nakago comes within a hairsbreadth of having Seiryu summoned to make himself a god above all gods, even managing to absolve himself of his sins to pass to heaven in his final moments.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#17336: Apr 14th 2020 at 11:55:24 AM

Yes to Alex.

I've found this on Generator Rex:

I've never watched the show. Anyone want to comment?

Edited by Bullman on Apr 14th 2020 at 1:56:10 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#17337: Apr 14th 2020 at 11:56:11 AM

Van Kleiss almost certainly keeps. Evil as he is, he handles himself with a complete style and never goes over the lines too much

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#17338: Apr 14th 2020 at 11:58:29 AM

CM but looks like a kid's show. I'll hear it.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#17342: Apr 14th 2020 at 1:42:26 PM

Definitely think van kleiss counts too.

Edit : [tup]Alex

Edited by miraculous on Apr 14th 2020 at 1:45:40 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#17344: Apr 14th 2020 at 5:04:20 PM

@43110 I was referring to Dushane. [lol]

@Scraggle Sure to Alex as well. And no, Left Hanging isn't disqualifying in my opinion, especially since I successfully deal with a trio whose situation ends in a Mexican Stand Off, which is arguably worse...

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Apr 14th 2020 at 2:13:36 PM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#17346: Apr 14th 2020 at 7:59:07 PM

Yes to Alex, Dushane, Nakago and Tekku.

  • Star Trek: The Next Generation: Q is a god-like being who often presents himself as a childish psychopath, which conceals his clever and devious nature. After Q is kicked out of the Q Continuum, Q tries to join the Enterprise Crew. When Picard rejects Q's help, saying they do not need it, Q teleports the Enterprise across the galaxy. There the Enterprise is confronted by the Borg, the most dangerous adversary the Federation has ever faced. When the Enterprise is about to be overwhelmed by the Borg, Picard begs for Q's help. Q saves the Enterprise, impressed by his humility, teaching Picard about dangers out in space. Later the Q Continuum strips Q of his powers and Q asks to be sent to the Enterprise, knowing they will protect him from all the enemies he has made. After regaining his powers, Q confronts Picard after he was killed in a terrorist attack, saying that Picard would have lived if he did not have an artificial heart. Q lets Picard travel back in time and avoid the bar fight in his youth that lead to him having an artificial heart. However, in the present Picard discovers he is a Lieutenant Junior grade, rather than a captain, with Q telling him that his brush with death is made him take risks and become a captain. In his final appearance in the series, Q is tasked by the Continuum to destroy humanity, but Q does so in a way that Picard can prevent, where Picard creates a time paradox when Q shifts him through time and Q provides hints to Picard to resolve the paradox and save humanity.

I know this is long, but there was a lot of ground to cover.

Should I propose Kirk's Arch-Enemy, Khan?

Edited by Overlord on Apr 14th 2020 at 8:04:15 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#17347: Apr 14th 2020 at 8:00:00 PM

I'd think that'd be great.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#17348: Apr 14th 2020 at 8:10:41 PM

[tup] Alex. He's one of the villains I myself was wondering about constantly if he would qualify for this.

Looking forward to the Van Kleiss crossover EP

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#17349: Apr 14th 2020 at 8:34:01 PM

That's okay, I can help you with trimming Overlord and I look forward to Khan as well!

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#17350: Apr 14th 2020 at 8:51:57 PM

[tup]Alex.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid

Total posts: 82,595
Top