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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16976: Apr 4th 2020 at 7:42:30 PM

Anybody else? Good time for opinions.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#16977: Apr 4th 2020 at 7:43:35 PM

I like 43's description best.

[down]I still prefer 43's that one seems a little long.

Edited by Bullman on Apr 4th 2020 at 9:46:06 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Eddy1215 Since: May, 2010
#16978: Apr 4th 2020 at 7:44:08 PM

Okay, I've developed a new description, tell me what you think of it:

'Writing a Magnificent Bastard in fanfiction is difficult, and to do so requires incredible amounts of talent, especially with established canon characters. This page is for those exceptionally talented enough to pull it off.'

Edit: Well, I do think it should at least mention that fan writers have to be very talented in order to create a Magnificent Bastard.

Edited by Eddy1215 on Apr 4th 2020 at 10:47:32 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#16979: Apr 4th 2020 at 7:47:36 PM

I don't think that it's necessary to explain how difficult it is to write an MB, just to describe how the trope fits with the medium like 43's example does. Also should we have a pothole for Original Character like we have on the CM subpage?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16980: Apr 4th 2020 at 7:47:40 PM

Have to say I'm really not a fan of implying it's only "talented" writers who can "pull off" having an MB. That's running back to the mentality with this trope we're trying to avoid. I think we brought to your attention Eddy that this trope isn't about the "pinnacle" of villains.

[up] I'm fine with potholing it when I run mine (provided everyone is cool with my version).

Edited by 43110 on Apr 4th 2020 at 10:51:06 AM

Eddy1215 Since: May, 2010
#16981: Apr 4th 2020 at 7:49:23 PM

Yes, well, Magnificent Bastards are still hard to write properly.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16982: Apr 4th 2020 at 7:50:02 PM

Eddy... we're not playing this game again man.

Eddy1215 Since: May, 2010
#16983: Apr 4th 2020 at 7:50:54 PM

Hey, I was just going by what was said on the main page.

Edit: If you don't want me around, fine. I'm going.

Edited by Eddy1215 on Apr 4th 2020 at 10:52:53 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16984: Apr 4th 2020 at 7:54:28 PM

I want you around, I don't want the non-existent criteria being applied, attempts to have the trope cut, demands for unvetted characters to be put back on the list. You're more than welcome here but there's something we're trying to get done and we need you to be working towards the same goal as us.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#16985: Apr 4th 2020 at 8:08:13 PM

Does a 10 minute story on a You Tube video on a channel notorious for making mock videos even count as an official fanwork/fanfiction?

Anyway I saw the whole video and it's pretty much That's Gonna Leave a Mark speculating on what it would take for Oolong to surpass Whis and become the most powerful being in the universe in what can be summarized as a long and complicated ramble.

Edited by username2527 on Apr 4th 2020 at 8:14:10 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#16986: Apr 4th 2020 at 8:15:43 PM

If its a work made by fans, generally yes. In this case it seems less a story and more a what if scenario though.

And there's...really no need for all the Snark and attitude here.

But Cut Oolong.

Edited by Kylotrope on Apr 4th 2020 at 5:21:19 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16987: Apr 4th 2020 at 8:26:23 PM

... Anyways does anyone have anything for Visual Novels?

Any particular way we wanna do the sorting here? I'm thinking go down the list (anime -> comic books -> film...), then by alphabetical order, then by medium (I guess maybe Fan Fic -> Web Video...)?

Edited by 43110 on Apr 4th 2020 at 11:35:24 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#16988: Apr 4th 2020 at 9:58:49 PM

Just dropping by to say [tup] Gray and Momoko.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#16989: Apr 4th 2020 at 11:05:24 PM

I like 43's idea for formatting the fan work's page. As for visual novels, here's my best shot

These are some of the most devious and charming characters to appear in Visual Novels.

Eddy1215 Since: May, 2010
#16990: Apr 5th 2020 at 12:09:20 AM

I'd like to suggest an addition to the Western Animation page, namely D.A.V.E from The Batman. Here's the article I came up with:

'Created by Hugo Strange using the psych profiles of the Batman's greatest foes plus his own, D.A.V.E was designed by the psychiatrist to be Batman's ultimate defeat. Showing off knowledge of villain cliches, D.A.V.E subverts and puts his own spin on villainous acts, using a stolen data core to bring Gotham to a standstill. Able to mimic the fighting styles and intelligence of Batman's Rogues Gallery, the A.I was able to overcome the Dark Knight on both a physical and mental level. With the aid of common available information, D.A.V.E was able to learn Batman's true identity and put him in a situation where he would lose either his Secret Identity or his trusted butler Alfred,, only losing at the last moment due to Batman making him realize he's a computer program. Able to keep Batman on his toes in fight and stay three steps ahead of him, D.A.V.E is one of the few villains in the entire series, let alone franchise, to come closest to bringing down the Dark Knight.'

Would you say that qualifies?

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#16991: Apr 5th 2020 at 12:48:02 AM

Having some rough personal issues prohibiting some rewrites I wanted to do today, so let me just pop in and say 43's description for the Fan Works page, as well as his recommended formatting, and also that D.A.V.E. comes close to counting, but he has a serious Villainous Breakdown at the end that completely undoes all of the magnificence he had built up, as Batman throws in his face the fact that he's just copying all the other villains and overloads D.A.V.E.'s circuits with the simple statement that D.A.V.E. has nothing original about his villainy or crimes.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Eddy1215 Since: May, 2010
#16992: Apr 5th 2020 at 1:14:26 AM

I don't see how his breakdown cancels it out. He wasn't rendered a whimpering mess; he was in a state of shock and disbelief. I recall there were examples were the villain lost his cool and started showing anger, yet they still count.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#16993: Apr 5th 2020 at 1:37:45 AM

It cancels it out because Batman completely outdoes D.A.V.E. by asking him a single question ("what's your origin"), which leads to D.A.V.E. having a freak-out as he realizes he doesn't have an origin, allowing Batman to get the upper hand and destroy him with his own trap, with D.A.V.E.'s last words being a disbelief that his "ultimate" intelligence couldn't have foreseen this outcome, before letting out a Big "NO!" as he dies.

D.A.V.E. is a smart villain, and though his arrogance is a bit off-putting, it could be let slide if his breakdown wasn't so immense. But Batman dismantles D.A.V.E.'s entire scheme by just asking him a single question that screws with D.A.V.E.'s perception of himself and sends him into a momentary freak out before he's killed off by his own trap with just a scream of "NO!" being all be can muster.

It's way too much of a complete travesty of a defeat to look over when D.A.V.E.'s intelligence and manipulations aren't even particularly special for the series—Riddler and Strange both have run Bats through the ringer just as bad if not worse than D.A.V.E.—so yes, getting angry or having a minor breakdown is fine for a Magnificent Bastard. But when a villain about to win, and he gets thrown off his game by a single question that induces a breakdown and shock at his intelligence failing him as his final moments before dying, it makes his chances of counting very, very slim.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#16994: Apr 5th 2020 at 2:28:03 AM

[tdown]DAVE.

His final breakdown is pretty pathetic. Plus he wAs just a robot creAted to do that.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16995: Apr 5th 2020 at 4:03:48 AM

Didn’t we... already have this exact same conversation?

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#16996: Apr 5th 2020 at 4:12:11 AM

No to DAVE.

Hope things get better, Ravok.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#16997: Apr 5th 2020 at 4:59:39 AM

43: I like your idea for organizing the Fan Works page.

No to DAVE.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16998: Apr 5th 2020 at 5:10:39 AM

Papyru I like your description... short, sweet and to the point. Anyone got a quote?

I'll format Fan Works in a bit.

Edit: Did it, someone wanna let me know how that looks before we start requesting all the changes?

Edited by 43110 on Apr 5th 2020 at 8:28:15 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#16999: Apr 5th 2020 at 5:46:25 AM

43: Looks fine except it's still missing Dragon Ball Z Abridged. But other than that looks good to go.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#17000: Apr 5th 2020 at 6:00:13 AM

Out of curiosity where do we wanna draw the line? Machinima stuff we generally seem to keep under Web Videos and I don't have a problem with abridged works going under Fan Works but I'm just curious about where we split and this is probably a good time to establish that. I'll be the first to admit fan works are not my forte.


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