During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
It feels weird to say that, but I'm going to deal with my first ever movie-related EPs (and my last EPs before the write-ups), and despite not being fond of many French movies, the movie we're dealing with is, ironically, a French movie.
What's the work?
The Crew (original French name : Braqueurs) is a 2015 crime film directed by Julien Leclerq, starring Sami Bouajila, Guillaume Gouix, and French-Ivorian rapper Kaaris. The movie has received mixed to positive reviews I'm inclined to agree with after seeing the movie. Not the best crime movie of all time, but it does it's job and is certainly above average.
So, what's it's all about?
Well, "Yanis Zeri is the leader of a successful Parisian heist gang that specializes in robbing armoured trucks. The crew consists of his trusted friend Nasser, Frank (the boyfriend of Amine and Yanis's sister Nora), and his younger brother Amine.(...) When Yanis needs an explosives expert for a big job, Nasser introduces him to Eric, an experienced young man Nasser met in prison." (Wikipedia). Éric subsequently joins the crew. All members of the crew (barring Nasser) have to deal with more or less strained relationships. Yanis tries to reconnect with his ex-lover Marion and his estranged mother Khadidja with little success, Eric is more successful with his girlfriend Audrey and their son Bastien, and Amine thinks he's not paid enough by his bro for the job, and after a successful heist, decides to sell one of the guns used in the heist to Gregory, a friend from Sevran (a city in 93, Seine-Saint-Denis, in Paris's north suburbs), despite Yanis telling him to get rid of all evidence.
This move... Proved to be unwise. Extremely unwise.
In their first on-screen heist, Nasser (Youssef Hajdi) informs Yanis (Sami Bouajila) when the targeted truck arrives. Yanis, in his own car, promptly rams into it. Eric (Guillaume Gouix) and Frank(David Saracino)'s car and Nasser's truck corners the truck, preventing any escape. Eric promptly places explosives on the car to blow up the windows and the doors. The truck's drivers quickly surrenders, the gang steals the blank passports inside of it, and then has Amine (Rédouane Behache) destroy the car used in the heist and throw in the river the weapons used.
Sadly for them, Amine, in desperate need of more money than what Yanis gives him, decides to sell the gun to his friend Gregory. However, the police, through analysis of the gun, realizes that it's a gun used in the heist and arrests Gregory, thinking he pulled it off, and Gregory ends up with 10 years in prison. Issue is?
Gregory is a member of Salif (Kaaris)'s gang, a bunch of drug dealers from Sevran (quite intentionally apparently, it's where Kaaris's from in Real Life).
Salif's Dragon then gives to Nora (Kahina Carina) Salif's number, telling her to tell Amine to call them or they exterminate their whole family.
So, yeah, Yanis's crew is in deep shit.
Pretending to be Amine, Yanis calls Salif to negotiate, and Salif tells him to meet him at Sevran. There, Yanis first tries to give him money, but Salif refuses. He's aware of the heist and how good Yanis's crew is. So, Salif forces Yanis's crew to pull a heist of a rival heroin shipment coming from Roubaix to Sevran. Now, things are a bit harder since they're going to deal with crooks, meaning gunfights are going to be a thing (their previous targets were harmless and unarmed).
Oh, and if they refuse, Salif report them for the robbery and kill their families, holding Yanis's mom Khadidja (Baya Belal) and Eric's girlfriend Audrey (Alice de Lencquesaing) hostage. Franck, after arguing with Yanis, decides at this moment to quit, due to Yanis's plan against Salif : Yanis agrees to pull the heist, but when they're going to give Salif the stolen shipments, they'll smoke Salif and sell the coke themselves, since Franck pointed out that Salif's gang will never stop asking for their services.
Yanis, Nasser and Eric promptly pull the heist, with Yanis's car ramming into the targeted car as usual. However, the rival dealers, trailing from behind the drug shipment to make sure it goes smoothly, open fire on Yanis's crew. They fire back and manage to take out the dealers, but at the cost of Nasser's life. Eric and a heartbroken Yanis burn the car used in the robbery, as well as Nasser's corpse. They come back with the shipment, and unknown to Salif, Amine and three of his friends are waiting not far from there, planning to kill Salif's gang during the shipment.
However, Salif finds out about them, having a guard outside and pressures Yanis into making them leave. However, as their car leaves, one of Yanis's friends gets out, goes back on foot, and kills Salif's Dragon. The situation quickly degenerates into a full-on gunfight, but Yanis's crew prevails, and Salif's gang flees the scene, returning to Sevran. However, one of their men was wounded and is taken hostage by Yanis and Eric, who forces him to tell Khadidja and Audrey's locations.
Meanwhile, Salif orders his men to kill the hostages. Yanis saves his mom just on time and manages to kill Salif, but Eric is not as lucky and Audrey is killed before he can reach her. However, Amine pulled a Heroic Sacrifice, distracting the police by ramming into one of their car, willingly letting himself be arrested while Yanis and Khadidja flee the scene.
Yanis plans to sent to Morocco Nora, Khadidja, Eric and Bastien until things calm down. Meanwhile, he'll break Amine out of prison. However, Eric decides to help him in that mission. Yanis promptly asks his lawyer to transfer his fortune to Morocco and tell him when his brother will be transferred from his holding cell. Yanis and Eric ambush the police van and escape with Amine, but when they get to a parking garage to use their getaway vehicle, police open fire and there is a shootout. Yanis covers Eric and Amine while they escape, and, just after dealing with the police, gets out of the garage... Only to be shot dead from behind by a young cop.
Is he charming? Intelligent?
Yes. While aloof, Yanis is chill, laid-back and friendly. I wouldn't say that he's Affably Evil (nor faux for that matter), but he's really someone nice to hang out with when he isn't pulling heists. He's also intelligent and meticulous, constantly destroying the evidence after a heist, recruiting Eric (who proved to be a damn good explosives expert) planning Salif's demise and succeeding after a round of Xanatos Speed Chess between the two and managing to free Amine.
What about the competition?
Two major competitors : Salif and the police. Salif is intelligent as well, never loses his cool, is capable of Xanatos Speed Chess and is my next candidate (but I do fear that he may be a tad too much of a bastard. I'll let you guys decide on that), but Yanis ultimately outplays him. The police is a bigger threat, but Yanis handles well against them as seen with Amine's escape, and only a shot from behind that Yanis had no way to notice gave them the W. It doesn't even comes off as charm-impacting, more as a Heroic Sacrifice as he was just covering Eric and Amine's escape before.
Is he a bastard?
He is the leader of a heist gang, and freely admits he does that For the Evulz. When threatened by Salif's gang, after consultation with Franck, he plans on killing them. At one point, when he captures one of Salif's men, he threatens to kill him and his whole family if he doesn't tell him Khadidja's location.
Too much of a bastard?
He cares deeply about his family and friends, investing most of the stolen money in his relatives' entreprises (most notably Nora's), mourning Nasser's death, and planning to send them, Éric and Bastien to Morocco when things go south.
Any other mitigating factors?
He does lose his temper twice. But both for legitimate reasons. First because by selling the gun, Amine seriously screwed them (and he ultimately calms down), and second time after Nasser's death (Nasser wasn't just his Dragon, but one of his closest friends). But he always get back up from that and any other time he's pissed as someone (i.e., Franck) doesn't go any farther than Tranquil Fury.
Verdict ?
I'll leave him up to you guys.
Salif is a drug dealer from Sevran who wants to have total control over the city's drug deal. However, when one of his men, Gregory, is arrested a heist he didn't commit and ends up with 10 years in jail, Salif is anything but happy about the news. Under his orders, his Dragon gives Nora his number, implicitly threatening her as well. This leads to "Amine" (in truth, Yanis) calling him, and Salif tells him to meet him at Sevran. There, Salif tells him he deduced who pulled the heist (i.e., "Amine") and makes clear that he doesn't want money from him, but his skills. Threatening to report him (and latter on, to kill his family), Salif tasks "Amine" and his crew to pull a heist of a rival heroin shipment coming from Roubaix to Sevran, promising to leave them alone after that. This will reinforce his control over Sevran, give him more money and finally get rid of the issue between him and Yanis. The heist is a success, at the cost of Nasser's life. Eric and Yanis return with the drug shipment, and Salif and his gang hold them at gunpoint while they extract the heroin from the wrecked car supposed to transport it. They also take away Yanis, Eric and Nasser's weapons just in case, with Salif promising to give them back alongside Khadidja. However, when one of Salif's men guarding the entry outside informs him that a car is outside with two people waiting, Salif deduces that Yanis tried to off him and sell the drug himself. He pressures Yanis into telling said two people to leave. They do... But one of them later comes back, and kills Salif's Dragon. The situation degenerates into a gunfight, and Salif's gang decides to leave, with Salif ordering his men to kill Khadidja and Audrey as they come back to Sevran. Shortly after Yanis manages to free Khadidja in Rougement (one of Sevran's districts, where Kaaris is from. Yes, they were precise), Salif and his gang attacks them, but Yanis ultimately manages to kill them.
Is he charming? Intelligent?
Unlike Yanis who did lose his cool for good reasons, Salif never loses his during his short screentime. He remains calm constantly even in the worse situations.
He's intelligent and meticulous as well, having a guard outside who promptly tells him that Amine and one of his friends are waiting outside, taking away Yanis and Eric's weapons, and knowing how to take advantage of the whole situation with Gregory and Amine.
Thinking on his feet?
When Amine and one of his friends is waiting outside to attack Salif's gang, Salif pressures Yanis into telling them to leave. He also manages to escape the scene with a couple of his men and the two reasons he ultimately failed and died is because Yanis took hostage one of Salif's men, wounded and left behind in the whole panic and because one of Amine's friends came back on foot, something no one, not even Yanis himself, saw coming.
What about the competition?
Yanis is Salif's competitor and while the former ultimately prevails, the latter proved hard to defeat due to his ability to improvise and his meticulous character. The two errors that caused Salif's defeats are more or less just as understandable and justified as the reason for Yanis's demise.
Is he a bastard?
Absolutely. Make no mistake, Salif is horrible, being a drug dealer, threatening to kill Yanis's family and killing Audrey. Not sure if he's above the baseline for a crime film, but if anyone is close to Complete Monster in this movie, it's Salif, as much of a Jerkass his Dragon may be.
Too much of a bastard?
Salif started the whole mess because one of his men got 10 years for a crime he didn't commit. That alone is redeeming in my opinion. He expresses Villain Respect when speaking of Yanis's skills as well.
Any other mitigating factors?
None that I can think of.
Verdict ?
I'll leave his case up to you guys.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Mar 30th 2020 at 5:07:37 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)For Catwoman, I'd add commas after "Kyle" and "Catwoman". Also, don't forget to add that (and The Batman incarnation) to her YMMV page.
@43110 Nah, they aren't!
There's a clear difference between Khadidja and Marion (Yanis's ex-lover) : the former has actual substance and character. Marion and her scenes are so bland I forgot about her name. You remove all of her 3 scenes and it doesn't have any impact on the plot itself. Guess why I didn't even mention her by name (nor her scenes for that matter) in the EP?
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Mar 30th 2020 at 4:25:37 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Salif.
As for Yanis...Georgie, PLEASE split up that Wall of Text at the end of his first section..
Edited by ACW on Mar 30th 2020 at 10:59:11 AM
![]()
Done.
My first ever possible crossover effort-post, with my name on it no less... I lied about it being a crossover effortpost, but it still has my name on it.
What is the work?
The Suppressor is a British 2011 neo noir film.
After Blake Bradley loses his wife in a home invasion, he lets his anger build up until he witnesses a prostitute being abused, prompting him to intervene. A mysterious benefactor, claiming to be the prostitute's father, offers to fund Blake's vigilante work in exchange for taking down major drug dealers in Scotland; but Blake's benefactor (credited as Max Bentley) might not be what he seems.
Eventually, Blake discovers that Max is a drug dealer himself, known to the criminal underworld and police as "Vince the Prince".
Who is Max Bentley/"Vince the Prince", and how does he operate?
Max Bentley, otherwise known as "Vince the Prince", is a major Aberdeen drug dealer.
After witnessing Blake Bradley defending a prostitute from a gang of thugs, Max poses as the crippled father of said prostitute, enlisting Blake's help to eliminate a number of drug dealers who happen to be rivals under the pretence of reducing crime, exploiting Blake's loss of his wife to drug addicts, as well as his desire for justice at all costs.
To this end, Max has one of his men supply Blake with weapons, while Max himself provides information on the targets themselves, only giving enough factual information to ensure the deaths of his rivals.
The targets include:
- Michael Forrester, his own subordinate, who deals drugs to children as young as eleven at Max's behest, but didn't pay his debt to Max. (Max claims that Michael works for rival Drug dealer Billy Hunter).
- Simon Smith, MP, a corrupt politician on the payroll of rival drug dealer Billy Hunter.
- Detective Cooper, a dirty cop, also on Billy Hunter's payroll.
- The workers at the farmhouse where Billy Hunter's drugs are processed.
- The men at Billy Hunter's Warehouse.
- Billy Hunter himself.
Once Max knows that Blake has finished eliminating the targets, he has his chauffeur gas Blake in the limousine provided, only for Blake to escape.
When Blake confronts Max for using him to eliminate his rivals, as well as selling drugs to children as young as eleven, Max posits that Blake has turned himself into a bloodthirsty serial killer. In response to Blake's threat to kill Max and finish what he started, Max reveals that he has abducted Blake's daughter Alana, and has his men lock her in a refrigerator as collateral. Fortunately for Alana, Blake shoots his way out, killing Max's men, freeing her, and eliminating Max with an M16 grenade attachment.
Is he intelligent and charismatic?
Max is clever enough to use Blake's desire for vengeance and misguided justice to his advantage, and charismatic enough to pull off the infirm grieving father act. Max's glibness and superficial charm is emphasized throughout the narrative. When Blake survives, he refuses to go down without a fight.
Is he a bastard?
Max manipulates a grieving husband with no criminal connections into eliminating rival drug dealers. Being a drug dealer, this ruthlessness is to be expected.
Is he too smug, vile or petty?
There are some things which give me pause.
1. Max deals drugs to children.
2. Max puts Blake's daughter in a refrigerator as collateral if anything happens to him.
3. Blake says that Max had the former do his dirty work because Max didn't have the balls to do it himself.
However:
1. We have had keepers who have tampered with vaccines for profit.
2. We have had keepers who have tried to take the loved ones of the heroes with them.
3. When push comes to shove, Max has no problem picking up a gun and confronting Blake himself.
Verdict?
All said and done, I think he's worthy of discussion.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 30th 2020 at 11:31:04 AM
My concern with Max isn't so much that he's too bad to count but I'm questioning the tone with which the film plays him... does he really comes across as a suave mastermind or is he just a manipulative dick who happens to be reasonably intelligent? It's a big deciding factor and I can't really glean which way the narrative leans from the EP.
Abstain on Max.
Cut these two ZC Es from The Saga of Darren Shan:
- Steve. Oh, God, Steve.
- Mr. Desmond Tiny
Same page:
- Complete Monster:
- Desmond Tiny is a sadistic time traveler (and Darren's father) who is revealed to have manipulated almost all the terrible events in history just for his own personal pleasure. He brags about the way he likes to drink the blood of children, claiming "it's so sweet", and on another occasion claims he is excited to witness a volcano that will kill thousands. He pitted Darren and Steve against one another, insisting that the vampires only have three chances to kill Steve before he overthrows the Vampires. Whichever boy won-Darren or Steve-would become the Lord of Shadows, kill all of their friends, and became the ruler of the world. When Darren decides to Screw Destiny and let both himself and Steve die, Mr. Tiny instead creates dragons which results in the Post-Apocalyptic world as seen in The Lake of Souls. His motivation is he looked into the future and saw that things were going to be too peaceful for his liking, so he set the stage for a lot of chaos to amuse him.
- The Vampenze Lord, aka Steve "Leopard" Leonard, is an unstable tyrant who starts up a war with the vampires to get back at Mr. Crepsley for turning Darren into a vampire and not him. Among his actions are seducing the hero's sister in order to get her pregnant; using his own son as a bargaining chip against Darren; and snapping the neck of Evra's eight-year-old son just for his own sick joy. Even the other Vampenze dislike him and only serve him because they have to.
Was there a time when people thought you could only be an MB if you were such a B that you hit that trope or something?
Agreed, I think the fact CMs have long-since had their own dedicated clean up meant the exposure to them people were getting meant they were the first type of villain to spring to mind. As I've said before, being "cool" in any type of way seemed to be the only thing that was sought out and we saw that affecting the trope by running the gamut from genocidal Nazis to mainstream Batman and Iron Man.
So it's been brought to my attention there was some vandalism on YMMV.Babylon Five involving the deletion of the work's MB entries that's being dealt with on this ATT report
, lumped in with the one Sky filed about the same page having its CM examples cut for no stated reason.

Yes to Rohff.