During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I am going to give a tentative
to Alejandro but I'm confused as to why you think he doesn't have the resources to enact that threat. He's a sicario, I'm sure he could call in a favor or two. (Not that I'm saying he would).
Oh yeah, I'm hoping we can swap Edelgard's write-up on the MagnificentBastard.Fire Emblem page too.
Matt Graver and Alejandro. If anyone's interested in their kill tallies, Alejandro is at 30 kills (16 in the first film and 14 in the second) and Matt is at 19 kills, all in the second film.
Edited by k410ren on Mar 27th 2020 at 4:19:54 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills@43110: Ask and yeh shall recive. I was having problems with size with Liliath so handed that one to you but the other three are here for you.
- The Evil Queen: Everly Morrow after a torrent of ill and abuses from others as well as love for her sister decides to embrace her title as the legendary Evil Queen. Everly takes over the kingdom of Sevhun as its new queen after killing her husband who forced her into marriage and exiles the deceased king's daughter princess Farrah, later foiling Farrah's attempts to usurp her and runs circles around her. After being captured, Everly bonds with Farrah's brother Roth and plots to escape, all the while using her Adorable Evil Minions to spy on things for her plans. Eventually escaping using said minions to cut off the fingers off one of her jailers, Everly manages to outwit Farrah and has her sealed forever into a glass coffin where she'll end up having to experience her crimes over and over again. Everly ends the book as the only antagonist on top, having left the others in the dust and now gains tremendous powers as well as both a marriage to Roth and control of the kingdom.
- Parallel Worlds: John Metclaf from "The Tragedy of John Metclaf" by Yudhanjaya Wijeratne: Metclaf, is an assassin magician known for pulling off skilled hits for the organisation known as Management. Feeling guilt over his crimes over the years, Metclaf eventually swaps places with a version of himself from an alternate world to avoid capture and decides to use this second chance to atone, leaving his alternate version to die at the hands of his captors in his place. Metclaf rises as a star and helps make several life changing advancements to the world and when Management attempts to bring him back, shuts them down and makes himself look the hero, all to his adoring public eye.
- Catwoman: Soulstealer: Selina Kyle aka Catwoman rose up from illegal street fighter to pay for her sister's medical bills and become a skilled member of the league of Assassins in two years. After discovering a way to use Lazarus pit formula to cure her dying sister, Selina leaves the league and heads back to Gotham City where she starts a crime spree in order to recruit both a skilled biochemist to help her complete it in Poison Ivy and a way to contact The Joker and make a deal with him in Harley Quinn. Starting a massive, flashy crime spree to take control of the criminal underworld and outwitting Luke Fox's attempts to evade her, Selina lets herself get captured eventually, knowing she'll be transferred to Arkham Asylum due to the infamy shes gained and uses Joker and his army to defeat The League of Assassins members who've come for her, by promising it to him, only to back stab him and hand him over to the police. Selina is a cunning, seductive figure who genuinely grows to care for Harley, Ivy and Luke and ends the book succeeding with her plans to save her sister, heading off for her next heist.
Edit : And liliath herself. Thanks 43110.
Edited by miraculous on Mar 27th 2020 at 2:15:19 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Write-ups done. Given Kamali's identity, his entire entry should be spoilered out on the YMMV page.
- Strike Back:
- Vengeance: Craig Hanson is Michael Stonebridge's Arch-Enemy throughout the season. After his brother is killed by Michael during a botched SAS training mission, Craig retaliated by murdering Stonebridge's wife, Kerry. Not long after, Craig decided to become a mercenary and auditioned to be part of Karl Matlock's crew. When Matlock refuses to hire him, Craig single-handedly neutralizes Matlock's security detail and sneaks into Conrad Knox's mansion; Knox then convinces Matlock to hire him. As Knox's mercenary, Craig assisted Knox with his schemes, using all of his skills to elude Section 20, attempt to kill Michael several times, and eliminate any law enforcement officers or soldiers in his path. After Knox's initial plans fail, Hanson helps Knox escape minutes before he can be captured. After getting arrested, Hanson escapes from policy custody and later murders Matlock when he tries to abandon Knox, taking his place to set off nuclear bombs in Johannesburg. During his final confrontation with Stonebridge, Hanson tries to convince him that they're Not So Different before attempting to kill him.
- Shadow Warfare: Leo Kamali is the true mastermind behind all the events of the season. Longing for revenge over his wife's death, Kamali became an undercover CIA agent working for a mysterious terrorist known as al-Zuhari. While undercover, Kamali murdered Liam Baxter and supplied al-Zuhari's coconspirators with the weapons and funds needed to continue their illegal operations. After being captured by Section 20, Kamali escapes, and later reveals his CIA identity once he's recaptured. While working for Section 20, Kamali frequently played both sides to his advantage, engineering the deaths of al-Zuhari's wife and Rachel Dalton, the bombing of a British embassy, the death of his CIA handler, and the torture or deaths of various soldiers and law enforcement agents. Upon discovering al-Zuhari planned on creating weaponized smallpox, Kamali acquired a sample before fabricating his own death so he could proceed with his schemes. Once he had the smallpox, Kamali intended on releasing the virus into Ramstein Air Base to cause an outbreak in America. When his plans fail, Kamali instead tries to release the virus in Berlin.
Thanks gents.
Tyk I'm just going to take out The Chessmaster pothole in Kamali's name since all MBs are examples... was there another one you wanted to use or you good if I just pull it?
Edited by 43110 on Mar 27th 2020 at 5:50:59 AM
I guess The Man Behind the Man. I'm not really anal on potholes to be honest.
Eh. Manipulative Bastard then. Think that works a bit better considering how he operates.
That works for me.
Edited by Tyk5919 on Mar 27th 2020 at 6:16:36 AM
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.Eh if it’s between the two let’s do man behind the man... again, ever single MB is close enough to a Manipulative Bastard
to Alejandro
Alright here's Frank Kitchen's write-up before I forget.
- The Assignment (2016): Frank Kitchen is a notorious hitman who has murdered numerous people for money. Forcibly converted into a woman by Dr. Rachel Jane as retribution for killing her brother, Frank Kitchen seeks vengeance on Jane killing everyone involved in his surgery before reaching Jane. When Jane captures her, Frank seduces Jane's assistant before killing him and all of Jane's other men, before Frank shoots Jane non-fatally. Frank would then stage the scenario to make it look like Jane's assistant committed the murders and frame Jane for killing her assistant sending Jane to a psychiatric ward, while also cutting all of Jane's fingers so Jane could never perform her heinous surgeries on anyone else ever again.
Edited by G-Editor on Mar 27th 2020 at 12:32:34 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffHey I was planning to EP a cannidate or two from a Victorious fanfic today or tomorrow to celebrate it's ten year anniversary, but I know 43 feels uncomfortable with the show's fandom being brought up on the CM thread. So I was wondering if it was okay if I go ahead? Because I don't want to cause any trouble.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 27th 2020 at 7:11:43 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Cool thanks. It might take until tomorrow I'm pretty tired tonight.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 27th 2020 at 8:23:25 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadCouple quick rewrites to Heather’s entry. Here’s the current one:
- Jason Bourne: Heather Lee is the ambitious, but well-meaning, head of the CIA Cyber Ops Division seeking to advance in the ranks of the agency. She first identifies and tracks rogue agent Nicky Parsons as the one who stole the black ops files from Treadstone to Iron Hand and has a small part in her death too. Heather is able to download malware into the files when Nicky steals them so Heather can trace them later on and then use a phone in the same room as an encrypted computer to delete the files when Jason Bourne accesses them. Heather seeks to convince Bourne to return to the CIA as a valuable assassin rather than have him killed and when she learns of how corrupt Director Robert Dewey and the Asset are, Heather helps Bourne sneak back to America through Las Vegas and keeps him up to date on what is going on. When Heather realizes they are under suspicion, she alerts Bourne, later saves him by killing Dewey and then takes part in helping Bourne kill the Asset and then once again tries to take power using her influence with Bourne, only for him to just barely outsmart her.
I wanted to add in bits about her diligently tracking Bourne and Nicky in Athens (that may already be covered though), helping Bourne escape capture in Berlin, her planning a meet, her catching on to Dewey and the Asset’s betrayal and her warning helping Bourne to save her and Kalloor. I also wanted to take out the bit about helping with the Asset’s demise since she didn’t really have that much of a part in that if at all. I also added in the word herself at one point too. Here’s the edit with those changes:
- Jason Bourne: Heather Lee is the ambitious, but well-meaning, head of the CIA Cyber Ops Division seeking to advance in the ranks of the agency. She first identifies and tracks rogue agent Nicky Parsons as the one who stole the black ops files from Treadstone to Iron Hand, tracks her and Jason Bourne in Athens and has a small part in Nicky’s death too. Heather is able to download malware into the files when Nicky steals them so Heather can trace them later on and then use a phone in the same room as an encrypted computer to delete the files when Bourne accesses them. Heather seeks to convince Bourne to return to the CIA as a valuable assassin rather than have him killed and makes a plan to meet with him after sending him a warning so he can escape capture in Berlin. When she learns of how corrupt Director Robert Dewey and the Asset are and catches onto their betrayal in London, Heather helps Bourne sneak back to America through Las Vegas and keeps him up to date on what is going on. When Heather realizes they are under suspicion, she alerts Bourne so he saves her and Aaron Kalloor, later saves Bourne herself by killing Dewey and then once again tries to take power using her influence with Bourne, only for him to just barely outsmart her.
For anyone who's curious, 43110 gave me permission to work on Jin after I did an Effort Post. It was either him or someone with his picture.
Well shoot. I must've misinterpreted what you said back then out of excitement.
Edited by 227someguy on Mar 27th 2020 at 11:39:40 AM
Everyone look at my sandboxI asked if you could do a more expanded effort post after most people besides me abstained. I alone am not enough to get a candidate up.
All good, if you think you're up to doing another one with more detail (the ones on the last couple pages are a good template) you'll probably be able to sway more votes.
Edited by 43110 on Mar 27th 2020 at 11:50:23 AM

I don't know. Even making an empty threat about rape sounds really distasteful.