During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Biggie, Catwoman, Graven, Nero, Frank, Kamali and Satoshi
Woah, that's eight EPs in a day guys! Love the energy, thanks fam!
Yah guys great job! hopefully we get eight more tomorrow (though I highly doubt that 
)
Yes to both Biggies, Catwoman, Graven, Nero, Frank, Kamali and Satoshi.
Question: Since there are God CM is there a God MB. Not someone who turns into a God, but God himself the Christianity God? I'd be curious to see a work that did that.
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Lizzid people!
I wouldn't think so.
Maybe, the issue with someone having ultimate power/knowledge is that it gets harder to prove their outcomes are a result of their intelligence and charisma, so you're gonna get more underdogs here.
Lizzid people!
I mean having about 9 incarnations of God as a CM is one thing, but given that God is accredited with being "omniscient," that really leaves their enemies with little chance of even beginning to hope they can stop him.
I hate spoilers
About a week ago, I listed traits that could make Jin worthy of being an MB, but was told that I should listed his traits more cohesively so he could be properly judged. So here I go.
- Magnificent Bastard: Jin was once a great hero revered by the Kingdom of Torna, but hundreds of years after its people were massacred, he joined Malos in his quest to destroy the world. Gathering a group of individuals who also hated the world and assembling the Organization of Torna, Jin assisted Malos in retrieving Pyra, the Aegis. When that fails, Jin later defeats the party and kidnaps Pyra in Genbu after killing Haze, securing the Omega Fetter and giving a "The Reason You Suck" Speech about his disappointment in Rex's selfish. Upon being defeated and spared by Rex in the World Tree, Jin is moved by Rex's growth and resolve, causing him to sacrifice himself to save the party from Amalthus. While not being forgiven for his actions, Rex and Azurda choose to remember him as a victim of fate and "a splendid soul''.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I don't remember you doing an effort post. If you have, then I apologize.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
@Klavice The closest thing to a God MB keeper I can think of so far is Prime!Alison "Mint" Witzenberg, but while they are an excellent chessmaster, they fail the bastard requirement.
Might as well pull another EP. I'm really, really iffy on that one, but we'll see how it goes. But hey, when people from the department where I'm born pull out potential candidates, I feel pretty much obligated to deal with them (true, I'm from department 75 (Paris ; it's big enough to be both a city and an entire department of its own) and grew up there, but I'm born in the suburbs, in department 94 (Val-de-Marne)).
So, we're going back to French rap.
What's the work?
Hold Up (Google translation) is a 1999 song by hip-hop group 113 (Rim'k, AP & Mokobé), featuring another group, Intouchable (Dry, Demon One, Mokem and the lates Las Montana, Mamad, Kimbak du 9.4. and M.S.). Both groups are from Val-de-Marne, and are part of local collective Mafia K'1 Fry (it's most popular members include Kery James, 113, Rohff and the late DJ Mehdi). Hold Up is a song from 113's debut album, Les Princes de la Ville (literally : "The Princes of the City"), released in 1999.
113 and Les Princes de la Ville surprised the whole French music culture when they won two Victoires de la Musique (literally "Victories of the Music", basically the French Grammy Awards) for "Best Revelation of the Year" (which, given France's lower opinion on rap than the United States, was especially surprising) and "Best Reggae, Rap or Groove Album" in 2000.
Hold Up (produced by Pone from the Fonky Family (who recently pulled an unexpected feat : despite having Charcot–Marie–Tooth disease, he produced an entire album with only his eyes); albeit DJ Mehdi produced most of the album), the song that gave the group some notoriety before their album's release, is a storytelling song dealing with... A hold-up. Basically 113 (Rim'k, AP and Mokobé) and Intouchable (Dry and Demon One) planned to pull a heist.
Whether or not they were successful, the police had a hard time dealing with them.
Who are Rim'k, AP and Demon One? What have they done?
Rim'k, heavily disguised (with Dalida's hair, Fidel Castro's beard, a Beretta, Inspector Columbo's coat and Elton John's glasses), localizes the bank. He then enters it, subdues a guard when he looks at him funny, threatens a "fat" employee of the bank (who's behind the bank counter) with a gun, who promptly gives him the money. Rim'k promptly escapes the bank, as it isn't over.
AP and Demon One, masked, enter the bank, quickly fire a shot and takes everyone inside hostage. Demon One targets the director, who attempts to says no, but is quickly stopped when Demon One threatens to hurt his wife if he doesn't gives him all of the remaining money, while they take all of the cashiers and machine's money as well. The director gives them the bank's safe's code. When a client attempt to play hero, AP quickly subdues him and threatens to kill him. The duo manages to take all of the bank's remaining money and escape while taking the director with them as cover (later on dropping him on the road, alive and well). The heist is a total success so far. All they need now is to escape. They quickly makes sure Mokobé and Dry are still around to make their escape.
Dry (I planned to EP him alongside Rim'K, AP and Demon One but I chose against it as he was a bit too barebones here), who is supposed to drive Intouchable and 113's car, is waiting for them to come out of the bank. Once the heist is done, they flee the scene, pursued by the police. When the police attempts to stop them by blocking the whole perimeter, Dry doesn't hesitate go through them, while the whole gang pull out their guns. The song ends in a Mexican Stand Off as Intouchable and 113 start their gunfight with the police, with no indication of who won.
Are they charming? Intelligent? Thinking on their feet?
All three of them, albeit working towards a similar goal (taking all of the bank's money), manage to stand out from each other while cooperating as well. First, all three are No-Nonsense Nemesises, making sure to reach their goals as fast as possible. When Rim'k notices a guard suspiciously looking at him, he immediately subdues him, and he later says to the employee "give me all of the bank counter's money and I'm out in 5 minutes". When the director refuses to cooperate, Demon One just shows a photo of the director's wife tied up, quickly forcing him to open the safe containing most of the money. He laters on kidnaps him for cover and as a hostage, but planning to release him alive and well when they escaped. When a client attempts to stop them, AP subdues him immediately and threatens to kill him. This both showcases good planning and ability to improvise as needed.
What about the competition?
The bank's employees, clients and directors weren't able to stop them no matter how hard they tried. The police proved to be a much bigger threat, but the song ends in a Mexican Stand Off there. Up to you if it's mitigating or not.
Are they bastards?
They planned to pull a heist, kidnapped the bank director's wife, implicitly threatened to kill her, threatened innocents several times. Yeah, more than enough.
Too much of bastards?
Murder is only used as last solution, they ultimately didn't kill anyone, and while kidnapping the director, they planned to release him later on.
Any other mitigating factors?
Dry refers to the police as pédés once. This is a homophobic slur, and can be roughly translated to "faggot". However, here it is used as a mere all-around insult instead of targeting their supposed homosexuality, Dry isn't the one effortposted to begin with, and the proposed candidates uses no such insult.
That being said, the Mexican Stand Off gives me pause as well.
Verdict ?
Really not sure on that one. I'll leave them up to you guys.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Mar 27th 2020 at 1:07:47 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
I think I'll lean yeah there Georgie, anyways, here's my own thug that y'all love to hate:
- Michiko to Hatchin: Once a loudmouthed wannabe gangster, Satoshi Batista raised himself up, killing the leaders of the Monstro Preto gang to take control over them himself. A ruthless leader, Satoshi devises a scheme to have rival criminal Michiko Malandro arrested; meanwhile Satoshi executes a former Monstro boss along with his family to avenge a childhood humiliation from the man. Betrayed by his second-in-command, Satoshi outguns him and his henchmen, dispatching them all even while fighting alone. An honorable man despite being a brutal criminal, in the end Satoshi even allowing himself be to fatally wounded by taking a shot fired at a little girl.
Also someguy, that would probably be what the final entry for Jin if he gets upvoted but Georgie just gave a good example on the expanded format we like seeing proposals in here, just so everything is clearly laid out.
Edited by 43110 on Mar 27th 2020 at 8:36:47 AM
Sure to the bank robber trio. I too would be interested to see a version of the Abrahamic God qualifying as an MB.
Mr. Wednesday is the closest example I can think of and that's mostly due to being weakened meaning he has to scheme his way back to power.
The Draftsman of Doom
Hold Up Gang.
I get what Austin is saying, and I mostly agree, but not entirely; I mean, it may be possible for a version of God to qualify as an MB if despite his omnipotence, he prefers more a more subtle approach to manipulating events, he prefers not to interfere in human affairs unless absolutely necessary, and when he does interact with characters he is shown to be charismatic, and personable, while at the same time being unscrupulous enough to allow certain events to transpire. So it's not necessarily impossible per-se. It's just that pulling it off would be extremely difficult to accomplish in any meaningful way. That said, I would be less surprised if the chosen one, or for instance, the Jewish Messiah were portrayed as an MB, since he is never portrayed as omnipotent.
Long story short, if God is portrayed as holding himself back, maybe he would have a chance.
That said, I prefer to stick with a more benevolent interpretation of God, others can stick with theirs, and everything is fine and dandy.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 27th 2020 at 10:25:30 AM
Rawr.
Going along with that note about the messiah: there's a manga worth keeping an eye on. Not gonna spoil it unless anyone wants to PM me about it but it's been brought up before.
Edited by 43110 on Mar 27th 2020 at 10:21:07 AM
Goku Black
Satoshi and hold up trio.
to the Holdup Gang
Wild Child
- Magnificent Bastard: Maldor has read the Evil Overlord List and all variations thereof, and knows to act on them. The Key Word? It doesn't work. He himself set it up to find the best people to rule with him. The reason that Beyonders are the hero is that they can't be predicted, unlike everyone else.
- Maldor is such a Magnificent Bastard that by Chasing the Prophecy, Rachel has become paranoid that Maldor somehow secretly planted their prophecy in the Oracle's mind and is giving them the runaround yet again. Such an act would be so perfectly in character for Maldor that none of the heroes can come up with a convincing argument that he hadn't done just that. He hadn't.
Well he sure sounds like a keeper
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sounds interesting. I have a couple concerns upon reading the work's page (Thought Crime and Cold-Blooded Torture), but if he doesn't reach needless sadism, I'm fine with him. I'd suggest cutting him for now, that being said. If anyone wants to bring him up, they can always do so later.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
RIP Toriyama
'Yes' to the Holdup Gang
Next up from Sicario, one that might be a bit more divisive than Graver, but who I nonetheless think makes it and is more than worthy of discussion.
Who is Alejandro? What makes him a candidate?
Alejandro Gillick is a soft-spoken, reserved man played by the ever-awesome Benicio Del Toro, introduced in Sicario as an operative working with Matt Graver in the CIA's schemes against the Alarcon cartel.
While himself, his unit, and Kate Macer are transporting cartel leader Guillermo Diaz across the Mexican border, they are caught in a traffic jam. Alejandro quickly spies cartel members in disguise hidden in the cars all around them, and moves on them at the first possible moment, trying to talk them down from drawing their weapons. Of course, as soon as they do, Alejandro and his unit light them up, gunning them all down in seconds and with ruthless efficiency before hopping back into their vehicles and continuing their escort mission.
With Guillermo in custody, Alejandro tortures the man through....unseen methods to extract information that the Alarcon cartel uses a series of tunnels to traffic illegal things across the border. When Graver rounds up a large ground of illegal immigrants, Alejandro uses his natural charm to convince several of them to work with him in isolating the location of the tunnel system.
When Kate is nearly killed by cartel assassin Ted, Alejandro arrives on scene, coolly holding a gun to the assassin and taking him outside, where Alejandro tortures him through such means as shoving a finger in his ear to get him to give up info to Graver and himself.
Once the raid on the tunnel system begins, Alejandro breaks off from the group on his own mission, cornering a cartel-serving cop and another thug, quickly killing the latter before forcing the cop to drive him. When Kate arrives and tries to get Alejandro to let the cop go, Alejandro quickly shoots her in her bulletproof vest, knocking the air out of her but leaving her unharmed as he forces the cop to begin driving him.
Having worked with Graver to learn that one of Fausto Alarcon's lieutenants, Manuel Diaz, is en route to Alarcon's home, Alejandro forces the cop to drive until they see Manuel's car, at which point Alejandro uses the cop to get Manuel to step out of the car and drop his weapon. Alejandro then quickly shoots the cop dead and shoots Manuel in the leg, crippling him and forcing him to continue driving to Alarcon's home.
As we then learn through Graver? Alejandro was once a simple lawyer working against the Mexican cartels, until Alarcon had Manuel Diaz order Alejandro's wife be decapitated, and his young daughter thrown into a vat of acid. Alejandro, now hell-bent on revenge, became a "sicario" (hitman), working for anyone who could bring him closer to Alarcon.
Using Manuel to get into Alarcon's residence, Alejandro kills him and leaves him as a decoy to lure guards up before killing them as well, moving through Alarcon's home and executing all of his security staff before finding Alarcon happily eating dinner with his wife and two young sons.
Alejandro steps up and takes a seat at the table, gun trained on the family, and remarks to Alarcon "Every night, you have families killed. And yet here you dine." Talking with Alarcon while urging the man's family to continue eating, stating that "tonight should be no different," Alejandro listens calmly as Alarcon says that what he had done to Alejandro's wife wasn't personal. Alejandro coldly says "Don't forget about my daughter."
As Alarcon pleads for Alejandro not to kill him in front of his boys, Alejandro doesn't even flinch as he quickly shoots Alarcon's wife and kids in front of him, before urging him once more to "eat, eat," at which point Alejandro finishes the job and executes Alarcon, simultaneously getting his revenge and assisting Graver in helping an opposing cartel take over Alarcon's operations.
As Graver's operation needs Kate's signature on a piece of paper to verify that everything they did was legal, Alejandro arrives at her apartment and urges her to sign. When Kate refuses, Alejandro reveals he has grabbed her gun, holding it to her head and informing her that if she doesn't sign the paper, he's going to kill her and fake her as having committed suicide. When Kate does sign, Alejandro sincerely suggests to her to move somewhere quiet, remarking that she isn't a wolf, and the world they are in is becoming one of wolves. Kate grabs her gun and aims at Alejandro as he strolls away, to which Alejandro simply stares her down, knowing she won't pull the trigger, and walks off without breaking stride.
In the sequel, Sicario: Day of the Soldado, Alejandro is recruited once again by Graver, who wants to kickstart a war between Mexican cartels. Quickly assembling a team, Alejandro tracks down and stages an attack on a lawyer of the Matamoros cartel, pretending to be from the Reyes cartel. Alejandro kills the lawyer and his security team without issue.
Later sent by Graver to kidnap the teenage Isabel Reyes then stage her rescue to paint the Matamoros cartel as the perpetrators, Alejandro succeeds flawlessly, fooling even the kidnap victim herself into believing the story. As Alejandro and Graver try to transport Isabel to a prime location to cement the frame-up of the Matamoros cartel, they are turned on by corrupt Mexican police working for the cartels, and Alejandro quickly works to dispatch several of the attackers.
Though Isabel slipped away in the chaos, Alejandro quickly tracks her down and begins transporting her back to Graver, though they come under attack along the way and are forced on foot. Coming across a deaf farmer's home, Alejandro quickly charms the man and his family through his knowledge of sign language, knowing it due to his own daughter being deaf.
When Graver calls and orders Alejandro to kill or abandon Isabel, Alejandro, having grown close to the girl, refuses, cutting off all contact with Graver and revealing he had himself a stash of money and weapons hid in the desert for just such an occasion. Accessing these provisions and disguising himself and Isabel as immigrants, Alejandro activates a tracker and puts it on Isabel, knowing that should they get separated, at the very least Graver will be able to find her and possibly show mercy, something the cartels wouldn't.
Alejandro nearly succeeds in paying a coyote group to smuggle himself and Isabel across the border, but unfortunately, a random-ass teenager, Miguel, who had spotted Alejandro a few days prior working with authorities near a mall, rats Alejandro out to cartel members and get him captured along with Isabel. Alejandro has a bag put over his head and, though he wriggles and writhes to escape, he winds up getting shot in the face by Miguel through the bag, seemingly killing him. Miguel was ordered to shoot Alejandro when another young boy refused and was killed for it by the cartel thugs.
As it turns out, all that wriggling and writhing served a purpose, giving Alejandro a better chance at survival as the bullet hit his cheek and nothing serious. Remembering that someone had been shot, Alejandro wriggles until he finds the body, then uses the belt buckle to cut himself free, then managing to find himself a cartel vehicle and begin driving.
Spotted by a passing car of cartel thugs that begins pursuing him, Alejandro, utterly done with it all, just grabs up a grenade from the vehicle's floor, pulls the pin as the cartel thugs pulls up besode him and begin shooting, and he casually tosses the grenade into their vehicle, blowing them up and killing them all while he just keeps driving.
A year later, Alejandro, completely patched up, tracks down Miguel, apparently still working for the cartel, and corners him in a closet, with the movie ending on Alejandro saying "Let's talk about your future", ambiguously leaving it as to whether Alejandro wants to take the boy under his wing, or kill him for shooting him in the face...
Is Alejandro magnificent in how he operates?
Ch'yeah. Though a different kind of magnificence from the aforementioned Graver, Alejandro is polite, efficient, and badass. He thinks on his feet invading Alarcon's residence, often works with Graver to develop their plans and strategies, and spends most of the 2nd flick thinking on the fly and often coming out ahead. He does get captured and shot in the face, but 1. it was only by the extremely Contrived Coincidence of Miguel seeing him days earlier and recognizing him, and 2. he still comes out no worse for wear a year later, as he wriggled and writhed his way into getting a cheek shot, then disposes of an entire gang of cartel thugs without blinking to escape.
Now, Alejandro is a broken man, defined by tragedy and revenge of his family's murder, plagued by PTSD and horrific nightmares that waken him with jolts, but ultimately, this only enhances Alejandro's personal appeal and badassery. Alejandro is hunting down people directly responsible for his family's deaths in the first film, and in the second puts his life on the line to save a young girl, and he does it all with serious determination, skills, and a cool factor that only Benicio Del Toro could conjure up.
Is Alejandro a bastard?
Alejandro is a cold mofo. He engages in brutal torture, kills a bunch of cartel thugs, kidnaps a teenage girl and puts her through trauma to start a war between cartels, and, in his defining Moral Event Horizon, he kills Alarcon's wife and kids in front of him before executing the man himself, to pay back Alarcon's own murder of Alejandro's wife and child.
This is all bad, but Alejandro is ultimately driven by vengeance for his family, and considering what Alarcon had done to Alejandro's wife and kid? Simply shooting Alarcon's family quickly is a damn mercy compared to decapitating them or throwing them into acid, and damn near everything Alejandro does in the sequel is based around protecting Isabel, having come to care for her.
Now, just to note, in the first film when Alejandro has taken Manuel hostage to drive him to Alarcon and Manuel is making a fuss, Alejandro says "If you try anything, your daughters will be violated by 20 men," which promptly seems to make Manuel comply.
If it were Graver making such a threat? I could maybe put some credence to it and say it's disqualifying, but Alejandro? This is almost absolutely a blatant, idle threat to make Manuel comply. Alejandro shows obvious softness towards first Kate and then Isabel in the movies, he never kills women except for Alarcon's wife, and Manuel's daughters are never even seen onscreen, let alone does Alejandro even have the resources to get 20 guys together. It's a one-off, completely idle threat, and Alejandro never again makes a sexual comment or threat throughout the films, so even though it's a bad threat? Considering the circumstances, I can let it slide as just a baseless threat.
Alejandro is moments away from confronting Alarcon, who ordered his family slaughtered, and Manuel had a hand in that so he's already on edge and in serious Tranquil Fury, he's on a strict timeline, and he says something that, though brutal, there is zero indication he would have—or even could have—fulfilled. And considering he's portrayed as having honor and a softness for women and young girls considering what happened to his family, I do not for one second believe he had the immorality to carry such a threat out, and was just saying whatever he knew in that moment would get Manuel to comply.
Final Verdict?
I'm saying Keep, Alejandro's a total badass, has a sympathetic backstory, carries himself excellently and his one potential issue (the threat of having Manuel's daughters raped) is a one-off line that is never brought up again, and there is zero evidence that Alejandro had the resources or sadism to carry such a threat out.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
As we talked this one overly quite thoroughly, I also wind up leaning keep here. His rape threat sounds like something he'd never actually carry out given everything else we know about the character and while he's broken up, sounds like a Billy Butcher case where he holds it together in spite of his problems.
Goku Black
Alejandro
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Alejandro. Played by one of my favorite actors.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Yes to Alejandro.
