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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#16501: Mar 24th 2020 at 8:37:08 AM

[up][up][up][up]He wasn't aware of that. That was the army who did that.

Edited by miraculous on Mar 24th 2020 at 8:37:36 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16502: Mar 24th 2020 at 8:38:27 AM

Gren doesn't get a forced sex change, that I recall...he takes hormone altering drugs that also give him breasts. I don't think that's quite the same. And it's not on Vicious

Edited by Lightysnake on Mar 24th 2020 at 8:42:17 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#16503: Mar 24th 2020 at 8:39:27 AM

Huh sounds weird...

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#16504: Mar 24th 2020 at 8:40:33 AM

My problem is I feel Vicious is too much of a dick. It ruins his charm for me. That's just me though.

Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 24th 2020 at 11:40:43 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16505: Mar 24th 2020 at 8:43:18 AM

How is he “too much of a dick”? You could say the same thing about Hans Gruber or Harry Lime, truthfully, this seems like a pretty arbitrary distinction being applied.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#16506: Mar 24th 2020 at 8:47:39 AM

No. Hans gruber and Harry Lime, despite being Faux Affably Evil, I wouldn't call them Jerkasses. I feel the comparison that is more warranted is Darkseid. And while I'm wary on Darkseid counting, there is a Grandioseness to him. Vicious is just a dick.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16507: Mar 24th 2020 at 8:50:44 AM

Just a dick is not correct but you seem pretty set in the ground on this one so I’m just going to let the votes come in.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#16511: Mar 24th 2020 at 8:57:56 AM

I’m gonna give a [tup] to Vicious even though I personally find him boring to the point of absurdity.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#16512: Mar 24th 2020 at 9:02:13 AM

Abstain on vicious due to lack of familiarity with the work.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#16513: Mar 24th 2020 at 9:03:50 AM

Also it sounds like there are some crimes that should be put on his Monster page, specifically bombing the rival clan's ship and the people killed in the bar. I'd offer to change it myself but I haven't seen Bebop so I don't want to put inaccurate information in the write up.

I'll repost this on the monster forum since that's the relevant place for this discussion.

Edited by papyru30 on Mar 24th 2020 at 10:19:20 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16514: Mar 24th 2020 at 9:06:17 AM

I think Lighty did his original, so I'll let him comment.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#16515: Mar 24th 2020 at 9:23:43 AM
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#16516: Mar 24th 2020 at 9:41:12 AM

I'll be coming with the next Bebop candidate later today, but until then? Vicious Keeps, very easily.

Vicious betrayed Gren and left him to take the fall for his crimes. That's the extent of it. Gren, while in prison, was given an experimental drug due to his temperament, and it—unplanned by anyone—changed the hormones in his body and caused him to develop breasts and have increased estrogen.

No one, not Gren or even the scientists, knew that was going to happen, and Vicious wasn't even aware of the damn drug, so yeah, that's not attributable to him, if anyone suspects that.

Moving on...Vicious ain't too bastard for the trope, he's smart and badass as all hell (he waxes poetically, he uses a damn sword in gunfights, he outsmarts the entire damn Red Dragon for a takeover while dropping badass one-liners, etc), and he's regarded as a classic Evil Is Cool anime villain. He's not a Jerkass and he's not too much of a bastard—he's an absolute, rock-solid Keeper, IMO.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#16517: Mar 24th 2020 at 11:15:05 AM

I am unfamiliar with Cowboy Beboo, whom I assume owns a computer, so I'll stay out of this one.

infernape612 (Green Sprout) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
#16518: Mar 24th 2020 at 11:26:58 AM

Since nobody has contested the latest suggestion for Edelgard in three days, is it okay if I just update the YMMV.Fire Emblem Three Houses page once and for all? (Or someone else can do it, I just want the errors fixed.)

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16519: Mar 24th 2020 at 11:29:37 AM

Gimme a sec and I'll make a finalized version.

This good?

  • Edelgard von Hresvelg is the leader of the Black Eagle house and heiress to the Adrestian Empire, as the sole surviving heir and successor to her father Ionius IX. Edelgard kickstarts the plot by acting as the Flame Emperor to have the heirs apparent of the other nations, Dimitri Alexandre Blaiddyd of Faerghus and Claude von Riegan of Leicester, assassinated by bandits. Edelgard's goal is to dismantle the Church of Seiros, which she views as corrupt and after preparing behind the scenes for a year, she declares war on the church, forcing everyone's hand, as she marches towards her grand ambitions. On the Crimson Flower route, Edelgard sways the reincarnation of the goddess Sothis, Byleth Eisner, to her cause, executes or exiles Claude, slays Dimitri, kills Rhea, Archbishop of the Church and daughter of the goddess, and conquers the entire continent of Fódlan. On the other routes, despite being bested, Edelgard calmly accepts her execution so that the war can end. Despite her cold and calculating demeanor and seeming perfectionist attitude, those who have earned her respect, such as Byleth, are treated to a much warmer side of her. In the end, Edelgard succeeds or almost succeeds in bringing Fódlan to its knees, her actions pave the way for the societal reforms she dreamed of, and she removes the corrupt influence of "those who slither in the dark".

Edited by 43110 on Mar 24th 2020 at 2:36:02 PM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#16520: Mar 24th 2020 at 2:01:51 PM

Alright, now? Let's talk my candidate from Bebop...

What's the work?

Cowboy Bebop: Knockin' on Heaven's Door is an anime film that serves as a bit of an interquel between some of the episodes of the classic series. With crisp animation and music as sweet as the fight scenes, this is an awesome movie whether you've seen the original series or not, and one big part of it? Our villain.

Who is Vincent? What makes him a candidate?

Vincent Volaju, voiced by my boy Daran Norris, a stone cold, cultured as hell badass who serves as the villain of the Bebop movie.

Once upon a time a soldier who fought in the infamous and horrific Titan War who had a woman he loved named Electra, Vincent was part of a group of test subjects experimented on to create Super Soldiers...Vincent was the only survivor of the experiments, at the cost of his own memory, and he soon enough vanished, declared dead by his superiors who knew the truth that Vincent had escaped...with knowledge of a deadly nanotechnology in hand. Said nanotechnology is dispersed by air and touch, attacking the brain before disintegrating into protein, making it near impossible to trace the origin of.

Arriving on the Mars metropolis known as Alba City, Vincent conscripts young, creepy hacker Lee Sampson, using his skills to assist Vincent in his schemes. Firstly stealing a tanker truck, Vincent fills it with the nanomachines, drives it to a busy street, and blows it up while having one of the quintessential examples of Unflinching Walk...due to the experiments done on him, Vincent is immune to the nanovirus, and as he slips away, nearly a hundred people are infected and killed by the nanomachines.

Having used this as a test run, Vincent travels with Sampson to a warehouse where he meets with another associate, Murata. Paying the man half of their promised arrangement, Vincent tells Murata he'll give him the second half once their plan is done, before warning him that Halloween is coming up and he should "say (his) prayers."

Confronted by Spike Spiegel onboard a monorail, Vincent keeps pace with the bounty hunter the whole time, using gunfire and hand-to-hand combat both to actually defeat the highly-skilled Spike. When Spike and Vincent both have guns on each other, the arrival of Electra—who, due to Vincent's memory loss, he doesn't remember properly—allows Vincent to shoot at her and distract Spike long enough for Vincent to grab him by the throat and dangle him outside of the speeding train...when Electra trains her gun on Vincent and orders him to let Spike go, Vincent just smiles, shoots Spike, and drops him out of the train before detonating a grenade filled with the nanobots, enabling his escape as Electra deals with the more pressing matter of the nanovirus.

Keeping the nanomachines stored in little marbles that he occupies his time by playing Chinese Solitaire with, Vincent is confronted by Sampson, who is worried about the fact that he's being chased by bounty hunters. Vincent, noting that you "win" in Chinese Solitaire by having only one piece left standing, promptly shatters one of his marbles and kills Sampson with the nanovirus.

When bounty hunter Faye Valentine finds Vincent's location at this exact moment, she gets infected with the nanovirus. Though she shoots Vincent through his hand, Vincent calmly licks his blood then kisses Faye, transferring his immunity to her and saving her life before tying her up. Using her as a chatting partner while he waits for Halloween night, Vincent reveals his plan to her...due to the experiments done on him and the horrors he experienced on Titan, Vincent has come to believe that he's either dead and trapped in a form of Purgatory, or asleep and lost in some sort of dream, and thst the only way to escape his "dream" and "Purgatory" is to kill everyone on Mars and be one of the last people alive, likening it to his game of Solitaire. Vincent plans to unleash the nanovirus on Mars and wipe out everything, believing that this will enable him to either leave Purgatory and reach Heaven, or finally wake up from the nightmare he's locked in.

Offering Faye the chance to "escape" Purgatory with him, Vincent tests her resolve by holding a knife to her throat, and lets her go when she stares him down, telling her she'll survive the nanoattack thanks to him sharing his immunity.

As Vincent prepares to go where "the world connects to Heaven", Murata shows up and demands his other half of payment, as police have started investigating him. When Vincent says nothing, Murata desperately proclaims "I did everything you said!"

Vincent coolly replies "Did you say your prayers?" before stabbing Murata to death.

Heading to a replica of the Eiffel Tower situated right in the middle of Alba City, Vincent watches over the Halloween night parade, and though the government believes Vincent plans to release the nanovirus into the water supply, this was simply a diversion on Vincent's part, as it is revealed that Vincent has actually pumped the Halloween parade balloons full of the nanomachines, and plans to detonate them at the height of the Halloween parade, successfully spreading the nanovirus all around.

Luckily, Spike and Electra—with help of the other members of the Bebop crew—deduce Vincent's plan in time and use old-school planes to disperse a cure to the nanomachines over the city in time...Vincent and Spike fight one last time, with Vincent noting that last time he deliberately missed Spike's vitals when he shot him so that they could have one last meeting, and though Spike begins to succumb to the virus (as he hasn't gotten the cure yet), Vincent is stopped from killing him by the arrival of Electra.

Electra, still deeply in love with Vincent and hoping to die along with stopping him, goads Vincent into shooting her, and just as Vincent is about to shoot her, she pulls her trigger as well, hoping for them kill each other at once.

At the last minute, though....Vincent doesn't shoot, letting Electra kill solely him, and as he lays dying, Vincent reveals that in that moment, he was able to remember everything thanks to her, and, realizing that he wasn't dreaming this whole time, he tells Electra that his time spent with her before the experiments was the first time he felt really alive, before dying with a smile on his face.

Is Vincent magnificent in how he operates?

Abso-flipping-lutely. Vincent is a smooth, cool operator, throwing all of Mars into a frenzy and panic with nothing but his smarts, some paid off allies and his nanomachines. He's a guy with skills and a shit ton of nanomachines, and he works with bribed guards and fellow conscripted terrorists alike to formulate a plan to wipe out the entirety of life on Mars, and damn near succeeds.

Vincent is polite, infinitely badass and unfettered, he matches Spike blow-for-blow and outsmarts everyone several times over, while offering 'helpful' advice to his compatriots such as telling them to 'say their prayers' as the time is coming for the chance to leave this "Purgatory," and he does it all while being a damn charismatic mofo.

Is Vincent a bastard?

Vincent's got the most heinous plan in the entire franchise—killing an entire planet with a nanovirus—and kills hundreds of people along the way with his terrorist attacks involving the truck and the monorail.

Buuuuuut Vincent's also got genuine honor and care for others like Electra, spares Faye just because she impressed him, and Vincent always carries himself with cold ruthlessness, never sadism or unneeded cruelty.

Now, just because I know someone will bring this scene up, when Vincent has Faye tied up, and she rejects his offer to join him and insults him, Vincent calmly grabs a knife, presses it at her belly, drags it up her chest and slices through her blouse on its way to press against her neck. This doesn't outright expose Faye's breasts, but it does still rip through the center of her shirt and expose her a bit more.

This is not remotely sexual for Vincent at all. Vincent is doing nothing but threatening Faye to test her resolve, and once she shows she isn't going to flinch from a knife at her throat, Vincent immediately smirks and backs off, letting her go without issue. Vincent isn't a sexual predator, and even though the scene might be Fanservice-y for some, Vincent is by no means some creep leering over Faye's body, just threatening her with a knife to test her resolve.

Final Verdict?

Easy Keeper.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#16521: Mar 24th 2020 at 2:03:33 PM

[tup]Hearty yes to Vincent.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#16523: Mar 24th 2020 at 2:09:23 PM

I'll give Volaju an easy yea.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010

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