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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#16276: Mar 16th 2020 at 6:41:56 AM

I think he sounds like he is way too vile for this trope.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16277: Mar 16th 2020 at 6:50:10 AM

ACW I think the issue is that Mind Rape, while the laconic defines it as being mental torture made out to resemble sexual assault, frequently just gets put up to explain some manner of psychic or psychological torment. Could probably use a TRS and my final word on it as a disqualifer: I'd say yes if the character committing it is acting like a rapist getting off, no if it's "just" the aforementioned mental torment.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#16278: Mar 16th 2020 at 7:03:27 AM

[up] Fair enough. Though whatever you wanna call it, my vote still stands to cut Neil.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16279: Mar 16th 2020 at 7:09:29 AM

Agreed, I don't think rape undertones are the issue here. He's found another way to be too horrible [lol]

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#16280: Mar 16th 2020 at 7:25:33 AM

Absolutely cut Neil. Don't see how he was ever approved with stuff like that on his rapsheet.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#16281: Mar 16th 2020 at 7:28:48 AM

To be fair, it probably wasn't thought on too much. Hence why we're reevaluating it now.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16282: Mar 16th 2020 at 7:29:59 AM

In the early days we played a lot more fast and loose with the bastard bit as long as the character met the components making up the magnificent part. Retroactively I think there's a feedback loop where parts of one can affect the other but hey, we've got this thread to hash things out and establish criteria after all.

It's probably why I'm such a hard ass about CM-crossovers in general now. A) They've already got their own thread to shine on and; B) Parts of MB and CM tend to be indicative of different authorial intent for the character, while an overlap exists it can frequently mean the writing's pulling in two different directions which means additional scrutiny is required IMO.

Edited by 43110 on Mar 16th 2020 at 10:31:58 AM

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#16283: Mar 16th 2020 at 7:34:11 AM

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I say keep Neil; having read the book myself, I concur that he is very, very awful, but all of his cruelty has a purpose, and I personally think an MB can get away with committing horrible crimes as long as they have a purpose to them.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16284: Mar 16th 2020 at 7:38:03 AM

Out of curiosity do you have any expansion on those thoughts? I respect your upvote but as I said I'm going into this with an open mind and would like to see all the possible angles. Alone I think "having a purpose" to having a child cannibalized, making someone enjoy maiming themselves to death etc. are far to disgusting to justify Neil trying to give credence to the argument. If it's a personal view of yours cool but if you've got more to that I'd like to hear you out Falcon.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#16285: Mar 16th 2020 at 7:39:12 AM

Was anything that he had done drawn out? Sure, a villain having a point in their atrocities is one thing...but needlessly drawing out a person's suffering without reason is another.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16286: Mar 16th 2020 at 7:49:15 AM

He does draw out suffering but from his view Neil's said drawing out is working towards proving "the argument". Technically it all meets the "has a purpose" thing, I just find myself seeing what he does to prove it as being too horrible.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#16287: Mar 16th 2020 at 7:57:04 AM

@43110: Personally, a villain having a purpose to their atrocities distances them from how horrific they are for me, if that makes sense. I can still admire them because they are working towards a goal I feel makes them magnificent; in this case, Neil proving an philosophical argument to Thomas.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16288: Mar 16th 2020 at 8:00:38 AM

Gotcha, so it's a personal view. I understand your point but I've gotta disagree there though I appreciate the debate and input.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#16289: Mar 16th 2020 at 8:14:09 AM

I think he should go on reflection. Whike his cruelty has purpose, the thing with the kid is a step too far for me in retro

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16290: Mar 16th 2020 at 8:36:34 AM

Since I'm off work with a sore throat today, here's a vote counter including the initial votes. Please keep them coming:

Yes: Scraggle, Kazuya, Elfen, falcon (4)

No: Ambar, 43, ACW, Sky, username, Lighty, mir, Library, Clown-Face, jjjj2, Austin, Bull, Ravok, Kylo, G, Duck (16)

Edited by 43110 on Mar 16th 2020 at 11:20:14 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#16291: Mar 16th 2020 at 8:37:05 AM

I'm fine with cutting. Also give me a bit. Will have an ep here

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#16292: Mar 16th 2020 at 8:49:22 AM

More or less was weighing either side because I think it best to hear both out, but probably cut.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16293: Mar 16th 2020 at 8:51:51 AM

Kk I put you down as an abstain until you cast your final thoughts fam.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#16294: Mar 16th 2020 at 8:52:07 AM

Cut him

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#16295: Mar 16th 2020 at 9:15:54 AM

[tdown]Neil. The cannibalizing a kid thing is what pushes it for me.

Edited by Clown-Face on Mar 16th 2020 at 9:18:04 AM

Why so serious?
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16296: Mar 16th 2020 at 9:16:37 AM

I feel like that thumb is going in the wrong direction given your statement [lol]

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#16297: Mar 16th 2020 at 9:19:36 AM

Yeah reading that CM summary, definite cut to Neil.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#16298: Mar 16th 2020 at 9:20:10 AM

Yeah, I'll throw in a cut there.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#16299: Mar 16th 2020 at 9:22:08 AM

Yes: Scraggle, Kazuya, Elfen, G, falcon (5)

Abstain: Austin (1)

No: Ambar, 43, ACW, Sky, username, Lighty, mir, Library, Clown-Face, jjjj2, Austin (11)

[down] I wasn't sure if you would given that you weren't feeling well, but if you can continue, I leave it to you.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 16th 2020 at 12:36:01 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16300: Mar 16th 2020 at 9:23:12 AM

Sky you wanna keep it going or should I? Don't wanna have two posts tracking the same thing.

[up] All good, I didn't mind if you wanted it but I'm not going anywhere today. Just wanted to know which of us should be doing it.

Edited by 43110 on Mar 16th 2020 at 12:36:59 PM


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