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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#16101: Mar 10th 2020 at 8:22:22 PM

Oh yeah, the corpse. She does lies next to Nathan, but actually ignores the corpse. Her dad is her main center of attention.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#16102: Mar 10th 2020 at 8:45:54 PM

True...doesn't negate it being kind of icky. At least for me.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#16103: Mar 10th 2020 at 9:01:28 PM

Alright here's Love Quinn's write-up:

  • You: Love Quinn is the daughter of wealthy socialites, who got her Start of Darkness when she murdered her babysitter upon learning that she raped her brother, Forty, while using her charms and family's wealth to feign innocence and avoid suspicion. Onto adulthood, Love becomes obsessed with Joe Goldberg upon learning about his darker nature, and murdering people that could expose Joe, including Delilah Alves when she sees her locked up in Joe's cage and Joe's ex-girlfriend, Candice Stone. Keeping Joe trapped in his own cage, Love tells Joe that she's pregnant with his child to ensure that Joe won't kill her and continue their relationship. When a cop kills Forty for holding Joe at gunpoint, Love pins both their murder on her deceased brother, getting the exonerated and allowing Joe and Love to move into the suburbs and start their family.

Edited by G-Editor on Mar 10th 2020 at 6:04:25 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16104: Mar 11th 2020 at 4:04:55 AM

Sorry forgot to vote but yes there G.

Spooky2Cute Since: Mar, 2020
#16105: Mar 11th 2020 at 11:19:44 AM

Okay, just got another Complete Monster for Junji Ito, I want to see if I can get him a MB

What is the work?

Junji Ito's The Bully the first chapter in volume 12 of the Horror World of Junji Ito series, The Bully and also chapter eleven of Museum of Terror vol. 3. The story tells of a woman named Kuriko who reconnects with a boy she used to bully, and falls in love with him. Unfortunately for her, he has other ideas.

Who is Nao? What does he do?

Years before Kuriko set to marry her boyfriend, Yutaro, she was a little girl who befriended a boy named Nao. First meeting Nao at the park, the boy's mother offered her chocolate to play with her son. Eventually growing attached to Kuriko, Nao shows up to the park to play with her, constantly. Nao's mother eventually leaves a gift for Kuriko for playing with her, who do to being new to town, was having trouble making friends.

Unfortunately for Nao, Kuriko begins to get annoyed with constantly having to play with him, and starts bullying him. She goes far beyond the Barbaric Bully and Kids Are Cruel tropes, and does some absolutely monstrous things to Nao while bullying him, she screams in his ear, pulls on them, beast him with a stick, made him drink gutter water, tried to goad him into jumping from a high jungle gym, and pushes him into a dog, getting mauled by a dog as a result.

After Nao moved, Kuriko matured, and as a result, spent years stewing in guilt. Then she met Nao again, and he turns on the charm, going on dates, convincing her to leave her fiancé, and even eventually marrying and having a child with Kuriko. Things look like they've done more then patch things up...

...then Nao fucks off, abandoning Kuriko to raise their son, alone. Kuriko let's the stress get to her, and she eventually mentally regresses back to her child phase, bullying her son in the same manner she bullied Nao. However, before this, she uses the last of her sanity to put together a messed up puzzle.

Nao. Faked. Everything.

This whole thing was elaborate ploy to get revenge on her for all of the horrific bullying she put him through.

Is he intelligent and charming?

Yes, especially the latter. He managed to successfully seduce Kuriko that she left her husband and married him. This doesn't seem to be some reckless decision on Kuriko's part, the two genuinely spent years together, meaning he's been dedicated to this for a while.

Is he a bastard?

Yeah. What Kuriko did to Nao was terrible, but this form of payback was just cruel and unnecessary. Both had grown up, and Kuriko showed she felt remorse. Did he reach out to her and try to talk things out? Nope. Now a child that had nothing to do with the bullying is stuck with his abusive, childish mother.

Is he too much of a bastard?

Not in my book. While two wrongs don't make a right, Kuriko was absolutely horrendous to him growing up, which probably didn't help his mental state. That, and I find this twist to be fantastic, awesome, and chilling!

Competition and mitigating factors?

None, and none. I honestly can't think of a single thing this guy did wrong. When it comes to planning, not morality.

Verdict?

I give him a [tup]

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#16106: Mar 11th 2020 at 11:22:40 AM

Abstain on the above. Not sure I'm comfortable with a dad who leaves his child with an abusive mother as an MB.

[down] This comes off on paper as a teensy bit more petty and personal.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 11th 2020 at 3:05:02 PM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#16107: Mar 11th 2020 at 11:39:08 AM

We've had M Bs who've done worse, like Thanos turning his adopted daughter into a cyborg

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Spooky2Cute Since: Mar, 2020
#16108: Mar 11th 2020 at 11:54:02 AM

[up]Or Osborn being emotionally abusive and twisting his son's leg to frame him and escape from his crimes.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#16109: Mar 11th 2020 at 11:59:57 AM

I feel yes, but there was a grandness and impersonalness to Thanos and his goals. This feels very personal. I'm abstaining.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#16110: Mar 11th 2020 at 12:06:00 PM

Alright. Real quick wanna get this guy approved as he is hands down one of the most popular Danganronpa V3 characters. If he has been effortposted already, let me know.

What's the work?

Danganronpa V3: Killing Harmony, sometimes called New Danganronpa 3 or NDR 3 to avoid confusion with the anime that ended Junko Enoshima's saga. It is a visual novel (the third in the main series, fifth if you count Spinoffs and the anime) about high schoolers trying to kill each other in an isolated high school to survive, or escape the vile Monokuma who is often controlled by Junko, or in the case of this game, Tsumugi, the ultimate Cosplayer or Super High School Level Cosplayer in Japan. Despite a mostly negative reaction to the "the entire Danganronpa series is an In-Universe Reality Show where people are given fake memories, to live a life within the school. At first everything seems peaceful, until Monokuma (the game's overarching Big Bad, but the real baddie is the one controlling him) gives a motive for murder. This can range from a video of the outside world, to money, to even a time limit where a murder must be committed in order to "get the ball rolling" in the case of this game, nobody bites at the motives until Monokuma proposes a Time Limit where if a murder is not committed within two nights, everyone will be executed.

Today we will be discussing one of the students important to overthrowing the Mastermind.

Who is Kokichi Oma?

Kokichi Oma is the Ultimate Evil Team Leader and a bit of a Bratty Half-Pint. His "gang of evil" really amounts to playing pranks and Poking the Poodle. He is introduced by seemingly bullying the token robot of the cast K1-B0 or Keebo. In reality, he's not bigoted at all towards robots and is just yanking Keebo's chain because It Amused Me. Immediately, he sets himself up to be one of the least liked characters of the cast due to constantly being Commander Contrarian to Kaede Akamatsu and feigning Crocodile Tears whenever she fights back. But in most cases Jerkass Has a Point as the Death Road to Despair is actually a false sense of hope, and should you somehow beat it, you are treated to a slightly different ending with the students making it to the end only to find it was all a ruse and the game continues as normal. He is the key figure besides Protagonist Shuichi Saihara in both stopping the Mastermind, and confusing the hell out of Monokuma making him something of a Pragmatic Anti-Hero.

Is he intelligent? A quick thinker? Charming? A bastard?

Yes to all four. He's easily the most intelligent of the students, serving as The Rival and Commander Contrarian to Kaede Akamatsu and Shuichi Saihara. He normally has the culprit figured out long before everyone else and loves to troll and mess with everyone, throughout the trial. His two biggest target for trolling are Miu Iruma and K1-B0 of course, often being exasperated and bewildered whenever the "Ultimate Inventor" says something intelligent instead of swearing (which makes him a Hypocrite as the Kokichi frequently swears almost as much as her and regularly insults her) and while he seems unpopular with the students, for his attitude of messing with everyone he got in the top four characters of V3 in both North America and Japan of the students for his intelligence and dry wit with only Kaede, Shuichi abd Kaito Momota being above him. After stringing everyone along for the first three cases, Oma decides to have some fun and takes advantage of Gonta Gokuhara's strength by saying everyone left hated insects and used that to have Gonta kill his Rival Miu for him. Turns out, Miu was planning on killing everyone to save her own hide. Her motive is definitely sympathetic though, as like Kokichi: Jerkass Has a Point with her inventions being invaluable to the world. He's also quick to admit Gonta is the culprit when Saihara finds out the truth. Turns out, Kokichi and Gonta were planning on having everyone vote for Kokichi and thus Mercy Kill them all due to finding out pretty early the whole fake memories Reality Show twist, with some past dialogue such as him admitting there's "No one waiting for him" alluding to his knowledge of the Dangaronpa Reality Show being pretty vast despite having fake memories, definitely an oversight on the supposed Mastermind's part. Once Gonta is executed, he gleefully admits to being the apparent Mastermind, hoping that he can stop the killing game by having everyone Mercy Killed as it turns out the outside world is literally Hell due to a meteorite wiping out much of humanity. And it turns out he truly does care about everyone and feels awful Kaede was executed, even to the point of trying to comfort (in his own weird way) Shuichi. Finally, after outing Maki as the "Ultimate Assassin", he nearly dies for it but just as he's near death due to a poisoned arrow, he asks Maki's boyfriend Kaito, to crush him with a hydraulic press while wearing Kaito's jacket, while Kaito pilots an Exisal Mech to prevent the Mastermind from figuring out who died and who was the culprit. In the end, he's a Jerkass no doubt, but it's hard to deny he did have good intentions even if he spends most of his time slut shaming Miu (who actually likes it!) And taunting Maki and Keebo, but he's an admitted Consummate Liar and doesn't seem to hold any actual malice. He also got most of the killers to reveal themselves, simply by lying which shows he's ''very'" good at manipulation.

Is he a bastard? Too much of one?

As stated before, he's a gleeful hellion who loves to lie, uses genuinely kindhearted people to kill, bullies Keebo (jokingly), Slut Shames Miu, annoys Maki, and is apparently the mastermind of an evil organization. Of course, all this is offset by his desire to escape and help his friends despite his antagonism, particularly Shuichi and Kaede who are two of his favourite people. He also has standards, such as when Korekiyo is revealed to have killed Tenko and Angie for "friends for his sister" and by "sister" I mean that in the Freudian way he's completely and utterly repulsed. He also wants to genuinely catch the Mastermind and is willing to do anything to do so. Not only that, but the reason he and Kaito pulled the ol' switcheroo? Because he didn't want Maki to get executed as the Blackened, despite how much she can't stand him. I'd say pass.

Verdict?

Guilty or Not Guilty? It's up to you guys. I don't want to cloud you guys with bias, so I'm going to let you all decide.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#16111: Mar 11th 2020 at 12:07:09 PM

Not sure on the above, either. Leaning no due to the slut-shaming.

[down] I'm still not sure.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 11th 2020 at 5:12:10 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#16112: Mar 11th 2020 at 1:55:05 PM

Trust me, we've let waaaaaay worse villains slide by. Joshua for instance, spends 90% of the time being condescending to people.

Kokichi's slut shaming is just insulting someone who constantly brags about her boob size. He does call her a "cumbucket" but that's about it. He actually doesn't say that in the original Japanese translation.

Also, he's already on YMMV.Danganronpa V 3 Killing Harmony so we probably should remove that if we choose to cut him.

Edited by Klavice on Mar 11th 2020 at 2:14:53 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16113: Mar 11th 2020 at 2:33:54 PM

No to Nao, I've read the story and he comes across as an asshole being an asshole to someone who used to be an asshole to him and the ending leaves with the implication he's left his own child in the hands of someone who's snapped and about to be horrifically abusive to them.

The Dangan Ronpa one... *sigh* who else has played it?

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#16114: Mar 11th 2020 at 2:34:51 PM

Though it should be noted that it has more to do with the flavor of evil than the amount of evil.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#16115: Mar 11th 2020 at 2:34:56 PM

Going with a "no" for Nao. Danganropa...sadly I hadn't played it.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#16116: Mar 11th 2020 at 3:08:14 PM

Only played the first and second ones sadly. My brother played the third one though, so I might get some info from him when I visit him this weekend.

That said, I fail to see how Joshua being condescending is worse than slut shaming and sexual harassment (he spends his first scene chasing a sapient robot around to unpants him and check if he has a dick)

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Apr 12th 2020 at 12:58:53 PM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#16117: Mar 11th 2020 at 3:09:10 PM

Master N has. He was the one who gave me the idea to effortpost Kokichi.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#16118: Mar 11th 2020 at 3:22:36 PM

Switching to no to Nao.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#16119: Mar 11th 2020 at 3:38:31 PM

Upon further contemplation, I am so not down with an MB candidate that indulges in sexually sketchy behaviour.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#16120: Mar 11th 2020 at 3:53:43 PM

Oh, Kokichi actually was not EP-ed. The entry on the YMMV page is unofficial. I actually wanted Nagito to be EP-ed.

That being said, having played the game, I will toss in a [tup] for him.

Edited by MasterN on Mar 11th 2020 at 3:56:33 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Spooky2Cute Since: Mar, 2020
#16121: Mar 11th 2020 at 3:58:02 PM

Fair enough. I was starting to regret recommending him, anyway. I don't know why I thought he was cool sad EDIT: [tup] Kokichi

Edited by Spooky2Cute on Mar 11th 2020 at 4:01:18 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#16122: Mar 11th 2020 at 4:11:43 PM

[up] Don't feel ashamed. We all have candidates that don't pan out.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#16124: Mar 11th 2020 at 4:34:09 PM

I’d like more on Kokichi here. Is this business with the robot played extremely light hearted? What about the rest of his shenanigans, does he get creepy or are these moments some have been worrying to be sketchy actually done in a sillier tone. I get wanting to go in good faith the EP was accurate on all fronts but let’s get some things cleared up before we start stamping the yes votes down.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#16125: Mar 11th 2020 at 4:56:35 PM

I'm abstaining on Kokichi until I get more information.


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