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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#15676: Feb 16th 2020 at 5:16:37 PM

I wouldn't call it an automatic point against him.

Its possible to still be bad enough to be a CM but not disgusting enough to Be D Qed as an MB.

Thailog is up as both a CM and MB for Gargoyles when he isn't as depraved or sadistic as the other guys

Things are really about to get Fun around here
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#15678: Feb 16th 2020 at 6:24:08 PM

Even in the context of this trope, though, you argued that Watts wasn't as vile compared Cinder or Adam, but geez the guy tried to freeze every innocent person in Mantle and was the key figure in paving the way for Salem's genocide of Atlas. He basically did in one volume what Cinder did in three. Then there are the lower tier things like setting up a massacre and framing Penny for it because he personally hates her creator, or needlessly causing traffic accidents and other mayhem in Atlas just to walk through the city undetected make him seem just as sadistic as Cinder except Faux Affably Evil.

I don't know if I'm blowing his crimes out of proportion, but I'm just confused why people seem to see him as a lesser evil.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#15679: Feb 16th 2020 at 6:26:13 PM

I have to agree with G at this point. This is better suited to the Complete Monster thread.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#15680: Feb 16th 2020 at 6:30:34 PM

Sorry if it sounds like I'm ranting. I'm just trying to make a point that I personally disagree that Watts isn't too vile to be a Magnificent Bastard.

Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 16th 2020 at 6:30:53 AM

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#15681: Feb 16th 2020 at 6:40:58 PM

I'd say it's questionable. While Watts is a vile bastard, he also conducts himself with far more style and poise than the vile and petty Cinder....I mean, compared to team Salem that consists of Cinder, Hazel (who's subject to savage breakdowns of pure rage) and Tyrian (an unstable lunatic), Watts...looks good if only by comparison.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#15682: Feb 16th 2020 at 7:31:56 PM

"He basically did in one volume what Cinder did in three. Then there are the lower tier things like setting up a massacre and framing Penny for it because he personally hates her creator, or needlessly causing traffic accidents and other mayhem in Atlas just to walk through the city undetected make him seem just as sadistic as Cinder except Faux Affably Evil."

Cinder isn't too sadistic because she causes lots of deaths and has the Grimm come in, it's how gleeful she is about it. Commenting on how beautiful the destruction is, shooting phyrra through the spine with an arrow so that shed be in pain even though she shows how she could just quickly incinerate her. Drawing out Vernals death and impailing Weiss with a spear in front of Jaune just to rub Salt in the wound.

Watts is just apathetic to the evil stuff he does

On the stuff about framing penny? Her being Pietros creation might have been a part of it, but the goal seems to have been to cause more distress for Mantle so the Grimm would come. Keep in mind Penny wasn't just anyone, she was considered mantles protector, so having Mantles people believe there protector killed a bunch of people is a good way to generate Negativity.

And him "Causing traffick accidents" sounds worse then the show Plays it. He like, causes one dudes car to break.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#15683: Feb 16th 2020 at 7:49:19 PM

Would fanart be acceptable for MB images?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#15684: Feb 16th 2020 at 7:50:55 PM

Mmm... reading over Lore’s points I’m going to pull back to an abstain here.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#15685: Feb 16th 2020 at 8:08:30 PM

@Imperial

We accept fanart for CM images, so I don't see the problem of doing it for MB as well. Though it would be best if we get permission to the person who made said fanart.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#15687: Feb 16th 2020 at 9:37:09 PM

I thought they were disqualified if they were too sadistic, smug, or Sore Losers? Being simply apathetic doesn't rub me as too awful, but I'm gonna abstain anyway. If every MB had to regret their actions we might be down to single digit examples.

Edited by Klavice on Feb 16th 2020 at 9:38:28 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#15688: Feb 16th 2020 at 9:40:24 PM

I'm fine with keeping watts for both honestly.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#15689: Feb 16th 2020 at 9:45:52 PM

Mmm...I'm leaning towards Watts keeping tbh. Doesn't seem to be overly sadistic.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#15690: Feb 16th 2020 at 10:47:50 PM

Alright so I’ve just watched this movie and I think that I found a candidate to discuss. The movie in question is called American Assassin.

What’s The Work?

American Assassin is a 2017 action thriller film whose premise starts with Mitch Rapp’s fiancé getting killed by a terrorist attack. This leads to Mitch Rapp vowing vengeance on all terrorists, starting with the ones who killed his fiancé. The CIA were impressed by Rapp’s skills and recruits him to a black-ops unit called Orion led by this man Stan Hurley.

Who Is He? What Has He Done?

Stan Hurley is the leader of the Orion, a Black Ops Unit containing some of the most ruthless and efficient assassins trained by Stan himself. Stan would have his cadets endure days and weeks of intense training with one training method having his cadets do a VR simulation where should they miss there targets or get shot, the simulation would shock them causing pain to the cadets.

When he believes that they are ready he would deploy them to assassinate high profiled terrorists, and makes it clear to his cadets that "no one's gonna come save you if you're caught” and should they get caught they’re going to kill themselves. Through Stan’s methods they would assassinate some of worlds dangerous terrorists including the person who killed Mitch Rapp’s fiancee, which leads to Mitch to join Orion.

In one mission he has Mitch and Anika spy on an Iranian nuclear physicist to learn about his contact and what their plans are. However Mitch and Anika are captured by Stan’s former pupil Ghost, which leads to Stan saving them and capturing the physicist where he still gets what he wants from him by threatening to burn him alive. From the physicist, Stan learns that Ghost and the Iranians are building a nuclear bomb.

Stan also learns that Anika is an Iranian spy through Mitch and tells her uncle about her. However Ghost kills Anika’s uncle and kidnaps Stan where he tortures Stan for abandoning him. However, Stan mocks Ghost about him telling him that he had to abandon Ghost to save the rest of his men because Ghost disobeyed a direct order that endangered them all.

He remains composed and undaunted by Ghost’s torture where he at one point bites off Ghost’s ear and deducts that Ghost intends to use the bomb to destroy the Navy’s Sixth Fleet and everyone on board them fleet and mocks the Iranians that Ghost was merely using them leading to Ghost to kill them.

When Mitch comes to rescue Stan, he tells him about Ghost’s plans and location, allowing Mitch to kill Ghost and foil his plan. Stan would return the favor by saving Mitch just in the nick of time before the nuclear blast takes him. He would then have Mitch’s infiltrate the Iranian president’s security guard to have him assassinate the president who wanted Ghost’s nuclear bomb and tie up lose ends.

Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?

As a recruiter and handler of a black-ops hit squad, Stan Hurley is definitely intelligent and charismatic. He has recruited numerous Americans and trains them to become assassins and then have them commit many assassinations with absolute proficiency. Being played by Micheal Keaton certainly helps

Even when things don’t initially go as plan, Stan is able to think on the fly to get his results, with his kidnapping of the nuclear physicist and threatening to torture him after his spying fails all without ever loosing his cool. Even when being tortured by Ghost, Hurley still keeps his cool and never once shows any fear, merely mocking Ghost defiantly throughout the process, and eventually learns what Ghost’s real plans for them really are, which allows Hurley to foil them and kill his former pupil.

What’s The Competition Like?

Stan Hurley is by far the most cunning and charismatic guy in the film by far. The only one coming close to Stan is his former protege Ghost. However by the time we meet Ghost he’s become too unstable and sadistic to be considered, (I just EP’d Ghost as a Complete Monster in the CM cleanup thread). No one else comes close to Stan’s level.

Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?

Alright so Stan Hurley has his cadets endure intense and brutal training to mold them into becoming his assassins, has them kill people for him, is apathetic to whenever they die, is willing to kidnap and torture people to get what he wants, and doesn’t regret abandoning Ghost to save the rest of his men. Yeah I’d say Stan’s enough of a bastard to be considered.

That said everything Stan Hurly does is to protect his country, no matter how unscrupulous they may be, is never overtly sadistic in his methods, and was willing to save Mitch Rapp when it was convenient for him. So yeah I would say Stan is not too much of a bastard to be disqualified.

Final Verdict?

I will leave that decision for you guys to make.

Edited by G-Editor on Feb 16th 2020 at 8:50:09 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#15691: Feb 16th 2020 at 10:51:13 PM

[tup]Hurly

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
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k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#15696: Feb 17th 2020 at 6:01:59 AM

[tup]Stan Hurley.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#15698: Feb 17th 2020 at 6:28:37 AM

[tup] to Arthur Watts and Stan Hurley.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#15700: Feb 17th 2020 at 11:23:58 AM

Sure there. Now, I have a mythological example from...Egyptian myth. I give you Isis.

Who is Isis?

Commonly known as Isis (her Egyptian name was probably closer to Aset, Isis being a more hellenized name. Isis is the goddess of mothers, kingship, a protector of the kingdom...now, myth is not a consistent thing because cultures are not consistent and evolve with time. Isis's worship dates back to the Fifth Dynasty where, in the common stories, she is the daughter of Geb and Nut, born alongside her brothers Osiris and Set, and her sister Nepthys. Isis eventually married Osiris. Now, Isis's role is a super important one in Egyptian myth...originally, Isis was the queen of the gods, when Set usurped and murdered Osiris. As a bit of backstory, Set ripped Osiris into pieces and Isis and allies, including Mepthys who did not like Set's nastier aspcts, reassembled him. Isisi revived him long enough to conceive a son who she raised to rise up, kick Set's ass and claim rulership.

Which brings us to what I think qualifies her. Now, the chief god is Ra, god of the sun, who is all but invincible. Ra's greatest asset? His true name, which will give you power over him, and he guards it closely. Isis, wishing for greater dominion and power over the pantheon, ends up fooling Ra heavily. In a sense? She manages to collect pieces of Ra's essence, including his sweat and mixes it into a creation of her own: a venomous serpent. Sending the snake out into Ra's path, she has it bite him.

Ra is invincible...except to his own power, and falls ill, which freaks everyone out, so who comes in to save the day? Isis, the great healer. Isis gets by Ra's side and asks for his true name to heal him....eventually coercing him with the knowledge it's his true name or his life. Ra gives it to her and Isis heals him, strengthening her power to the strongest god of the pantheon with power over Ra, which also strengthens Horus's position in the pantheon in some myths....personally I prefer the one where Isis does it for her own benefit.

Now, this would be a bad thing...if Isis wasn't relatively benevolent, responsible and didn't care heavily for the people of Egypt, so....dodged a bullet there, Egypt!

How's she operate?

She tricks the eternal king of the gods to almost kill him and gets him to give up the one thing that givs her power over him to heal her...and this plan goes off without a single hitch. Even then, Isis is the one who gets Horus in above Set and while the myths vary, she's crafty, even if she's benevolent.

Is she a bastard?

She almost murders granddaddy Ra (even if she intends for him to live it's still a dick move) for...well, really self-serving reasons. I'd say yes. But even that aside? Isis is a caring goddess who loves her family and is ready to help Ra take on the evil serpent Apophis every night for the sake of existence. So bastard? Yes, but not too much.

Conclusion?

All hail the queen.

Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 17th 2020 at 11:28:22 AM


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