During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Ironwood is a very complex Anti-Villain but he's defined by his obsessive paranoia. And has lost it to the extent he shoots a 14 year old for comparing him to Salem
Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 15th 2020 at 4:42:57 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around hereI'll vote yes on Watts. Did his saga just end, which is why he wasn't snatched up earlier?
Out of curiousity, is there any way Wolf O'Donnell from Starfox could count? I know the Aparoid Queen and Andross are too vile but what about the guy who's essentially The Rival to Fox? I mean, we proposed Shadow and Rouge so why not?
Edited by Klavice on Feb 15th 2020 at 6:58:47 AM
Sure to Watts.
Say is there anyone else in RWBY that we might have missed that might qualify?
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffI don't think so.
I talked about the other Salems faction Guys and Ironwood above, aside from them I can just think of Torchwick. But he was E Ped and downvoted as while he had loads of Charisma he was still just a particularly cool lackey for Cinder.
Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 15th 2020 at 5:18:59 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around hereRaven is a Dirty Coward
Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 16th 2020 at 4:39:17 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around hereFor Person of Interest:
After surviving an assassination attempt by Samaritan, Elias goes underground with Team Machine's help and dies giving his life to protect Finch from the rouge A.I..
- Should that be rogue A.I.?
- Only one period is needed at the end.
- If you want, there's Person of Interest: Decima Technologies for Samaritan.
- Diabolical Mastermind for Elias's name?
Lemme try this. It's at the Drafts; do as you wish.
- Person of Interest: Carl Elias, a New York City crime boss and the illegitimate son of Don Gianni Moretti, evaded his father's attempts to kill him after witnessing the latter having his mother killed and spent decades building his own power base, even using a job as a teacher to siphon off mob recruits. Evading arrest after killing his mother's assailant, Elias later assists, then double-crosses Reese, forcing him to give Elias his father's hiding place, going on to take control of much of the city's crime scene while having his right-hand man kill his hated father while Elias seemingly quietly surrenders to the police. In prison Elias expands his business, even helping Team Machine from behind bars and when nearly killed by Russian mobsters, prepares to calmly accept his fate. When rescued, Elias works with Carter to turn HR and the Russian Mafia against one-another and when faced with the challenge of yet another gang, prepares swiftly to fight them when they kill his loyal right-hand, even outwitting their leader Dominic. After surviving an assassination attempt by Samaritan, Elias goes underground with Team Machine's help and dies giving his life to protect Finch from the rogue A.I.
Yeah, I suppose Watts counts. Sounds like they did pretty okay with that character considering how bad they wasted Roman and Adam.
Out of curiosity, since we're considering Watts as a Magnificent Bastard, is that an implicit vote against him from you as a Complete Monster? I thought he did enough to qualify this season, but the general vibe I'm getting is that people would vote him down.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.

Whelp. Here's my new attempt for this...
What's the work?
RWBY is an Animesque show that functions as a sort of mixture of numerous Genres. From Science Fantasy to the Superhero Genre as well as numerous fairy tales and Anime Tropes, ECT. In the world of Remnant About a girl named Ruby Rose who is brought into Beacon Academy, an Academy for people with Semblances, A superpower that in some way reflects its owner, to become warriors called "Hunstman and Huntresses" So they could fight monsters that feed on Negativity known as the "The Grimm". Becoming leader of the Titular Team RWBY.
Unmarked spoilers ahead.
Who Is Arthur Watts?
A Brilliant Scientist of the Kingdom of Atlas. One Day General Ironwood tasked several top scientists to make potential projects to invest in. Pietro Polendia, who made the "Penny Project" was chosen over him. At some point Watts was disgraced, and after Salem, the Grimm Queen recruited him. Watts faked his death And threw his hat in with Salems faction.
Watts created the Black Queen virus, Which allowed Salem's apprentice Cinder Fall to hack into guarded computers to set up the Fall of Beacon. As well as allowed for an Escaped Neo and Torchwick to hack into Atlas military system, Which gave them control of Atlas military technology.
Watts's first official appearance was at the start of volume 4 with the rest of Salem's inner circle, taking a somewhat more important role in the plot in volume 5, there he with Cinders crew recruit/blackmail Tribe leader Raven Branwen. Only for Cinder to begin altering details of the plan whilst negotiating with Raven, Which he points out will ruin things. And after Cinder ignores his warning, he simply returns to Salem's fortress.
In volume 7 he finally takes a major role in the story serving as the Volumes Arc Villain. Upon being deployed by Salem with Tyrian to his home kingdom of Atlas to set the stage for her arrival. He proceeds to Manipulate leader of the Schnee Dust Company Jaques Schnee who was running for Atlas Councilman at the time, and was struggling because of him wanting to lay off his workers in Mantle to save money because be needed their Votes for the council seat. Watts offered that he could Hack the Election so Jacques would win regardless, just needing Jacques to give him access to the Atlas network do the trick. Claiming his price was for Jacques to make Ironwoods life a living nightmare.
Soon enough on election night he would hack it so Jacques would win. He Also sent Tyrian to Robyn Hills premature victory party, before causing a blackout and having Tyrian kill several people there and then having Penny Polendina, the "Protector of Mantle" framed for the massacre. Doctoring the security footage to replace Tyrian with Penny.
The True purpose of the Deal however was so that Watts could use his Acess to Atlas network to take control of the heaters in mantle and turn them all off, so he could cause Mantle distress and allow Grimm to invade the city.
However his deal with Jacques was, unknowingly to both him and Jacques, being recorded by the cameras that Jacques wife secretly put around. After Ironwood sent troops to evacuate mantle and tells the people about both Salem and her minions, Watts calmly reacts by trying to form a Plan B, telling Tyrian to cause Chaos whilst he went to Amity tower to Sabotage it after Ironwood claimed that it was going to launch. Only for it to be revealed as a trap set up by Ironwood to lure Watts in.
After realizing this, Watts decides to battle Ironwood, using his Tech Rings to take control of the Arena and activating it Watts then proclaims
"At the risk of sounding Cliche James, I'm not going down without a fight"
He and Ironwood proceed to battle, with Watts using his smarts and terrain to his advantage. Throughout the fight counting the bullets, and when Ironwood who'd been counting himself points out that Watts was out to get him to surrender, Watts complied….
To get Ironwood to lower his guard. Watts then uses and gives up his Tech Rings to trap Ironwood's arm in a Hard light field before walking away.. Ironwood however proves just how determined he is, pulling his hand through the field as it burns. He then charges at Watts and holds him by the neck off the Surface of the Platform they were on, over the lava far beneath them at the bottom of the Arena. With Ironwood saying that he will sacrifice whatever it took to save Atlas, to Which Watts simply smirked and responded
"I hope you do James...I hope you do" foreshadowing Ironwood's descent into Villainy thanks to his desperation.
Watts is subsequently arrested and thrown in jail, only for Salem to finally arrive with her giant whale and Dragon monkey army.
Charming? Intelligent?
Watts has Charm in the bag, Christopher Sabat(Yes, as in "Prince Vegeta!" Chris Sabat) plays him as a Witty Evil Brit and does great at that. And while he can be a bit of a douche whenever he isn't acting Faux Affably Evil, that Does Not detract from his Charm in the slightest as it's always laced with a Deadpan Snarker demeanor. Plus most of his Douchiness is that he likes to Bully cinder….Who is….Well friggin Cinder.
For intelligence? He's the Evil Genius of Salem's faction and he shows it. He's a mastermind at tech and machinery, was able to fake his death years ago, And in the present day is able to Manipulate Jacques and orchestrates events to cause distress among Mantle to attract Grimm. And displays a number of smaller but clever moments in his fight with Ironwood. Like him tricking ironwood into letting his guard down and trapping his arm.
Bastard?
Ohhh yes. Watts is evil to the core to be certain, he created the black queen virus, which played a major part in the fall of beacon(Namely, it caused all of Atlas machines to turn on and start killing innocent people) frames an innocent girl for a massacre he orchestrated. He sows discord among Mantle and tries to have an entire city get slaughtered by the Grimm. And is working for Salem, who wants to pin humanity against Eachother to rip down human society and take over what's left.
Too Vile, Smug, petty?
Bad as he is, Watts is a Sociopath, not a sadist, he isn't killing people just to hurt others or with Glee. He just Doesn't care who has to die for the end goal.
And compared to some of the shows Other villains? Like Cinder who goes out of her way to be a sadistic bitch or Tyrian who Relishes on killing and hurting people, or the Humanoid shaped container for the word "Awful" that is Adam Tauras? Watts is nowhere near as Repulsive and looks a bit better or at least more likeable by comparison. His appearance in volume 5 having him displaying Pragmatic Villainy.
One thing I wanted to Adress was this which was said about him on the CM thread
"His machinations against Atlas and Mantle feel far too vindictive and petty for me to say he has any redeeming loyalty to Salem. He wants to watch Atlas and it's people burn because they denied him a modicum of respect that he felt he was owed."
I agree his "loyalty" to Salem is purely self serving. But that isn't quite accurate, his extremely brief Motive Rant seamt to just show a dislike of Ironwood himself, his feeling towards Atlas as a whole seeming to just be not giving a crap about it.
What's the competition?
For the Rest of Salem's faction? The only one who might count is Salem herself, who is worth keeping an eye on as she's finally stepping into the main Focus next volume.
Hazel is an Affably Evil Noble Demon, but he Doesn't really do much in terms of smarts or manipulation, being an opponent for his Muscle.
Cinder is clever, intelligent, and can Fein charm. But she's way way WAY too much of a bastard to count. And has been established as a High functioning Smug Snake and a Big Bad Wannabe.
Tyrian is entertaining as hell and has a bit of Genius Bruiser cred in the Qrow and Clover fight, but he's a depraved Beast Who is basically Ax-Crazy personified.
Final Verdict?
I'll leave it to you guys, easily one of the best RWBY villains with this volume.
Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 15th 2020 at 5:07:26 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here