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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#15401: Feb 3rd 2020 at 3:35:11 AM
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#15403: Feb 3rd 2020 at 7:48:54 AM

[tup]King

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#15404: Feb 3rd 2020 at 8:08:38 AM

Alright, it's unanimous so far. So here's my writeup for King:

Saints Row: Benjamin King is the founder and boss of the Vice Kings and the head of Kingdom Come Records. In addition to being one of the most powerful people in Stilwater, King is a "public darling" who has cultivated strong connections with City Hall and the Stilwater PD. When the 3rd Street Saints declare war on him, he proves a capable opponent, bouncing back from losses, using his police connections to pressure the Saints, and luring many Saints into an almost completely successful trap. Dethroned in a coup led by two of his subordinates, King teams up with the Saints and personally takes revenge on those who betrayed him. Even after abandoning criminality, King achieves great success, first as an author and then in politics. One of the most savvy and charismatic crime bosses in the series, Benjamin King is notable as one of the very few gang leaders to tangle with the Saints and live.

BTW, I think this might be Michael Clarke Duncan's first MB. Am I right about that?

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Feb 3rd 2020 at 8:10:01 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#15405: Feb 3rd 2020 at 9:29:24 AM

Late yes to King and Madoc.

Anyway, here is the Edelgard Writeup! Hope it details her enough. Feel free to pothole it and change as needed.

  • Fire Emblem: Three Houses: Edelgard von Hresvelg is the heiress to the Ardrestrian Empire and successor to her father, Ionius IX as his sole surviving heir and leader of the Black Eagle House. She kickstarts the plot by acting as the Flame Emperor to have the students of Garreg Mach Monastery assassinated by bandits, particularly Claude of Golden Deer, and her step-brother, Dimitri of Blue Lions. Her goal: To take back the monastery from the corrupt Church of Seiros. After aligning with Byleth after they join her, she has them incapacitated so they are unable to stop her from declaring war on the Church as well as the Leicester Alliance and The Kingdom of Faerghus. In the Crimson Flower Route, she ends up killing Rhea, the Archbishop who, was actually the daughter of the goddess, and conquers the entire Fòdlan continent, while executing Dimitri. In the other routes she is bested, and accepts her fate to be executed by Dimitri, or Byleth in the Golden Deer path. Despite her cold and calculating demeanor and seeming perfectionist attitude, those who have earned her respect, such as Byleth are treated to a much warmer side of her. In the end, she succeeds or almost succeeds in bringing Fòdlan to its knees, as well as removing the corrupt influence of the Church and "Those Who Slither in the Dark".

Kind of refreshing to see a Female MB for Fire Emblem. And a Bisexual one at that.

Edited by Klavice on Feb 3rd 2020 at 9:33:52 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#15406: Feb 3rd 2020 at 12:50:52 PM

[tup] madoc

Edited by G-Editor on Feb 3rd 2020 at 10:53:30 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#15407: Feb 3rd 2020 at 1:43:31 PM

Hey guys I'm back from my trip. Yes to Kate, Edelgard, King and Madoc.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#15408: Feb 3rd 2020 at 1:53:21 PM

[tup] to Benjamin King and General Madoc.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#15410: Feb 3rd 2020 at 5:08:39 PM

[tup] Madoc and King again I'm sure that there's at least one other MB in that series (maybe the Boss themself).

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#15411: Feb 3rd 2020 at 5:25:27 PM

[up] Maybe. As I mentioned, I think Julius might also have a good shot. Though I think I'll let other people handle them.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#15412: Feb 3rd 2020 at 7:12:08 PM

So I talked about this anime earlier today in the CM forum, and it just so happens I have an MB candidate to chat about as well!

Wild Knights Gulkeeva (or Juusenshi Gulkeeva, or Beast Warriors Gulkeeva) is another one of those Humongous Mecha animes that can out back in the mid-90s. It only came out in Japan, but I found out years ago that someone added subtitles to the series, so I was able to watch it. And apparently, the same source is still online. Anyway, the anime takes place in Shinjuku, where teenagers Touya, Kira, and Konoha are hanging out together like they would any normal day. Suddenly, a giant robot from a different dimension shows up and starts wrecking the city. Just as all hell is breaking loose, Touya and his friend encounter Greyfus, Beakwood, and Garriel (and later Tedium), four Animanoid (Animaloid?) warriors from the distant kingdom of Athaelia who have come to Earth to beckon Knight Radias. When Touya rushes back home, he finds out that he is Radias, and that he's The Chosen One destined to save the world from the Darknoids, a long-time enemy of the Athaelians, specifically those from the country of Fintayenia. As you can expect, Touya ends up joining the Animanoid warriors in their quest to stop the Darknoids.

Lots of explosions, robot bashing, Character Development, and a disturbing amount of violence and death for an anime based off a shonen ensue. Now then, let's talk about this show's wonderful Chessmaster.

Who Is He?

Lem (or Lemu...I think his full name is Darlemuian?) is a high-ranking Darknoid soldier who desires those who are skilled in combat.

What Has He Done?

Early on in the show, Lem doesn't do much beside ominously play an organ while his superiors are giving the other soldiers their orders. After Daratium is killed in the fourth episode, Lem's lover, Yun (or Yuri) replaces him, while Lem stays behind monitoring the Darknoids' plans as they all try to uncover hidden Bouethers that'll greatly aide Prince Zaza in his schemes. Lem often stays behind in the Darknoids' fortress while Yun runs off to expose the Bouethers each time a new one is located. Lem repeatedly uses reverse psychology against Yun, telling her she's weak and that she needs to let other soldiers find the Bouethers, which pushes Yun even harder to go find them all so she'll please Lem. The two end up finding the last few Bouethers, but Lem, dissatisfied over how many times she lost to the protagonists, dumps her for being too weak. Yun, furious, fights the protagonists one last time, using her last ounce of energy to activate the final Bouether before she dies.

With the Bouethers activated, Prince Zaza uses his powers to transfer the Darknoid fortress to Earth. Alongside Giru (or Gil), the two of them spend their time aiding Prince Zaza and sending various mercenaries to capture or kill the Beast Warriors and Legendary Knights. Lem also starts spying on the protagonists using floating robots so he can study their fighting styles and find their hideouts and loved ones. Things go sideways when a mercenary named Dancer tries to deploy the Devil's Core, a weapon capable of destroying the entire planet (and the Darknoids along with it). Lem quickly dispatches of Dancer and, seeing no other option, contacts the protagonists directly asking for help. All of them stop the Devil's Core (albeit Touya loses a friend in the process) and go back to being enemies in the next episode. Most of the other mercenaries sent after the heroes are defeated in combat, with Lem even finding out that one Darknoid named Jentu stole a golden pistol from Giru and tried to cut and run. Lem sends the traitorous Darknoid to capture the heroes in exchange for his life. Jentu is killed in combat—much to Lem's relief, as Lem already retrieved Giru's gun and returns it to him.

Towards the end of the series, Lem gets promoted by Zaza, seeing him as being a "true believer" in his schemes. He also finds out that Yun is still alive, and that a new mercenary named "Guy" looks familiar to another Darknoid who allegedly died in combat. As Zaza is nearing the finishing stages of his schemes, Lem heads over to where Yun is hiding out at and confronts her. He tries to convince Yun to return to him and the Darknoids, telling her that it's because of her efforts that Prince Zaza and the Darknoids are close to succeeding. Yun pretends to go to him, but quickly steals his sword, declaring she has no intention of going back. They get into a brief fight and Yun nearly kills Lem, up until Konoha's father tells her to stop, not wanting her to murder a man in front of siblings Naoki and Mayu. Lem sees an opening and quickly flees back to the Darknoid fortress. To his surprise, Touya's been captured (mostly due to Touya's own recklessness) and is tied up in a chair. Lem tells Giru to have a moment alone with Touya, at which point he starts choking him.

He doesn't kill him though. Lem just wanted to see if he could awaken Touya's powers—which he couldn't. Lem, realizing that Touya was not the warrior he was so desperately seeking to fight, abandons Touya and stands by as Giru shoots him multiple times. As the protagonists and the army start attacking the fortress, Giru decides to cut and run, where he's stopped by Lem. Pissed off that Giru killed Touya, Lem tries to kill him, only to be stopped by "Guy." "Guy" stabs Giru and leaves him to die, chasing after Lem as he tries to flee. Both soldiers get into a swordfight, going on about how they were both cheated out of fighting and killing a Legendary Knight, but just as "Guy" is about to go for the killing blow, Lem activates a switch that opens up the floor they're standing on, seemingly killing "Guy" while Lem survives.

Lem encounters Touya and his allies after they seemingly kill Prince Zaza, telling them both that if they truly want to destroy Zaza, they'll have to face his spirit again in Athaelia. With the Darknoids' plans ruined, Lem decides to head back to Athaelia alongside a former Knight, with the two of them uncertain of what the future holds for them.

There was supposed to be a Season 2, but the studio that made the show didn't have enough funding. YAY. :D

Is He Charming? Charismatic? Magnificent?

Lem is essentially a Non-Action Guy. He almost never gets his hands dirty; everyone around him is doing all the hard work, while he either takes the credit for it or ensures that whenever an operation ends in success, it'll be mentioned he had a hand in said success. And if an operation fails, he'll find a way to offload the blame on someone else, or even get someone killed to cut off a loose end (like with Jentu). All that being said, whenever Lem does have to fight, he's not above fighting dirty so he'll win, such as when he (almost) kills "Guy" by activating a trap door. He's also got some sense of honor, as he (somewhat smugly) thanks Touya for helping him stop the Devil's Core, and he's disgusted that Giru killed Touya while he was tied up in a chair, instead of being able to fight him head on. Lem isn't egotistical either; he had absolutely no problem with teaming up with Touya and his friends to save the planet, considering what the alternative was.

He's a Foil to Giru. Giru is a Smug Snake; Lem is The Chessmaster. Giru is a narcissist; Lem isn't. Giru is loud and obnoxious; Lem is quiet and mysterious. Giru isn't capable of shifting his plans if shit goes wrong; Lem is, and he isn't afraid of directly stepping in to get what he wants. Giru never takes responsibility for anything; Lem will either own up to his mistakes and correct them, like when Dancer went rogue, or he'll manipulate the situation to make it seem like he wasn't involved at all.

The only small tidbit for Lem is that his desire to find worthy opponents teeters towards being an obsession. The man went AWOL just to try and bring Yun back to the Darknoids' side, and while Lem was smart enough to follow Prince Zaza's orders, his primary goal was to fight a Legendary Knight for his personal satisfaction.

Is He a Bastard? Too Much of a Bastard?

Hell yes. One could argue that Lem's a full-on sociopath, considering how many times he ends up abandoning his allies or tries to get them killed. When a cadet who secretly admires Yun brings her flowers when she's wounded, Lem takes them and tells him he'll give them to her when she wakes up. Said cadet later dies trying to kill the Beast Warriors and Legendary Knights to avenge Yun, and Lem murmurs that he was an imbecile before throwing the flowers in the trash. Anyone who's considered weak in Lem's eyes is worthless and inferior, and he wastes no time letting people know this. He has absolutely no problem with helping the Darknoids in their schemes, he taunts the heroes and villains alike, and when he finally comes face to face with Touya, he just lets him get shot to death by Giru, appalled that such a Knight would get bested so foolishly (Touya gets resurrected later, but still).

By far his most dickish thing is how he treats Yun. He fell in love with her to begin with because, as a flashback shows, she was a "Merciless Vampire" who showed those around her how strong she was, and this piqued Lem's interest. He even tells her he finds strong-hearted people attractive. The second Yun starts showing signs of weakness, he starts calling her weak and advising her to stay back and rest. It reaches a point where he pretends to start dating another woman in front of her just to push her into nearly killing herself in battle to expose the final Bouether. And then when Lem confronts Yun for the last time, he goes as far as saying Yun being born was a mistake, considering she ended up being a "housewife." There's also a line where he says that all women are the same: repugnant. But, again, it's heavily implied that Lem was just saying this to push Yun into being reckless, considering he rarely shows signs of being a misogynist at any other point in the anime.

I will point out though? Lem's relationship with Yun is not physically abusive. At no point does he rape her, attempt to rape her, or so much as slap her. It's mostly just verbal insults and manipulative actions.

Conclusion?

...Eh. He might be too much of an asshole here. But I'll let y'all decide.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#15413: Feb 3rd 2020 at 7:53:14 PM

I'm gonna have to [tdown] Lem. He just treats Yun to awfully for me to be okay with this.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
227someguy I hate spoilers Since: Apr, 2017
I hate spoilers
#15415: Feb 3rd 2020 at 8:37:25 PM

Regarding Edelgard, those who slither in the dark is supposed to be all lowercase letters. Other than that, [tup].

Also, I'd like to have Jin as a MB. He's a Fallen Hero who gives Malos the manpower he needs by acting as The Heavy, subjects his old friend Haze to a Mercy Kill and acts for the sake of destroying the world that took so much from him. In the end, he redeems himself by killing the man responsible for most of his suffering, dying with a smile on his face.

[down]What's an EP?

Edited by 227someguy on Feb 3rd 2020 at 12:41:53 PM

Everyone look at my sandbox
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#15416: Feb 3rd 2020 at 9:27:11 PM

Jin could qualify, but we need an EP. Check the folder in the pinned post.

Draxterrus An Eldritch Troper Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
An Eldritch Troper
#15417: Feb 3rd 2020 at 10:13:52 PM

EP means effort post. In the folder, you scroll until you see the section ‘What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?’. There you will have to provide detailed information based on what is listed in this section. That is called an effort post. You will also have to read the rest of the information in the folder to familiarise with the trope and understand what is needed for qualification.

Edited by Draxterrus on Feb 4th 2020 at 2:18:19 AM

Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
227someguy I hate spoilers Since: Apr, 2017
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#15419: Feb 4th 2020 at 12:03:15 AM

You can also use the template from my below EP.

New proposal, from Woody Guthrie's Dust Bowl Ballads.

This one will be short, as the song is only 3 minutes.

Who's the candidate?

Pretty Boy Floyd, from the song of the same name.

What does he do?

We first meet Floyd on a date with his girlfriend, when they get harassed by a thuggish cop. A scuffle ensues, and Floyd kills the officer. Fleeing into the woods, Floyd takes up bank robbery. He travels across the Midwest, ransacking banks wherever he goes. However, he is not a selfish robber. No, he spends that money paying random farmers' mortgages and leaving thousand-dollar tips at restaurants. The song ends with Floyd dropping off an entire Christmas dinner at a shelter for families affected by the Dust Bowl. Attached is a note criticizing the very bankers he robbed, since he doesn't force families from their homes.

Intelligence? Charm?

He's a Robin Hood-esque Gentleman Thief, who pulls off daring heists and then promptly gives back to the community.

Thinking on his feet?

He killed that cop in impulsive rage, but manages to calm down, escape, and use his need to wander to become a criminal mastermind.

How bastard is he?

He's a bank robber and a Cop Killer, sure, but the cop was britalizing him and the bankers were stealing hones from starving families. Not only that, but Floyd helped plemty of those same families not be ruined.

Competition?

I haven't heard the rest of the album, but it seems like Floyd only appears in the one song, where he outsmarts the law at every turn.

Verdict?

[tup]

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#15421: Feb 4th 2020 at 4:07:16 AM

[tup] Floyd.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#15423: Feb 4th 2020 at 5:09:46 AM

Edit: Sorry double posted.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 4th 2020 at 7:10:22 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#15424: Feb 4th 2020 at 5:48:39 AM

Floyd sounds like a keeper. Leaning no to Lem, as his abuse seems to heavily affect his magnificence. That said, I'll abstain.

That being said, I've got another rap candidate (should be my last one for a while). This one should be less contentious :

What's the work?

Runnin (From tha' Police) is a 1995 song by rapper Tupac Shakur, featuring The Notorious B.I.G., Stretch, Buju Banton and Dramacydal (later known as Outlawz). Produced by Easy Mo Bee, the song is significant, being one of very few compositions 'Pac and Biggie created together (alongside their guest appearance in Eddie F's 1994 album), as later hostility arose between the two rappers following the 1994 Quad Recording Studio shooting, ending all possible collaborations and partly leading up to the East-West Coast hip-hop beef. The song, originally slated to appear on Thug Life's 1994 debut album Volume 1, and 2Pac's 1995 album, Me Against the World, was scrapped both times due to varying controversies, first due to Interscope Records' strict censoring and second because of the beef, respectively. It was later finally featured on the 1995 One Million Strong compilation album, created to commemorate the 1995 Million Man March.

The song was later remixed under the name Runnin' (Dying to Live). Produced by Eminem (Easy Mo Bee received songwriting credits), the remix appeared in Tupac: Resurrection soundtrack for the Academy Award-nominated 2003 documentary, Tupac: Resurrection. The song was reduced to a duet between Pac and Biggie, while Buju Banton's hook was replaced by an Edgar Winter sample, and Stretch and Dramacydal's verses were removed. The remix is the more popular version, reaching the number 19 on the Billboard Hot 100 in December 2003 and having a music video.

An Exactly What It Says on the Tin case, the song deals with Outlawz ('Pac, Yaki Kadafi, Kastro, E.D.I. Mean), Biggie, Stretch and Buju Banton's issues with the police and more precisely their attempt to escape them. However, we're going to focus more on Stretch and Biggie's verses, since we do have a candidate there.

    The more popular Eminem-produced remix 

Who's the Notorious B.I.G./Biggie Smalls/Frank White? What has he done?

Describing himself as a loser in his early life, Biggie longed for success. Introduced to drug dealing, Biggie became a drug dealer and achieved the success he wanted to have, selling drugs overnight.

Gaining enough money alongside Stretch, both realized that they no longer needed to deal, just engage some dealers to do the job for them and have a share of the ensuing profits.

Their success, of course, doesn't exactly please the police, after them as a result. But Biggie and Stretch weren't having it. Making sure two cops ended up "missing" in milk boxes, Biggie and Stretch changed their physical appearance by growing dreads, hoping not to match the physical description police would give them. When the police ends up finding them anyway, Biggie realizes that, well, he's too fat to run away fast enough. Settling for firing back, Biggie manages to kill the officer after him before fleeing. He then sold the officer's gun and celebrated by buying some more cocaine before going back to his usual money-making habits, with no consequences whatsoever for what he did.

Is he charming? Intelligent?

Yes. "the black Frank White" is a successful drug dealer (and Biggie in Real Life was also a notorious drug dealer before achieving success) and a far cry from the "fuckin' screw-up" he was, assigning other dealers to do his and Stretch's job when he realizes that both have more than enough money to sustain themselves. He portrays himself as such, and doesn't hesitate to engage in Self-Deprecation about his own weight, telling us to picture him running away from the police.

He also makes sure to hide alongside Stretch the 2 cops' corpses after having offed them, grew dreads to try and hide from police, uses Teflon-coated bullets to make sure the officer would no longer be able to pursue him (Teflon-coated bullets caused a bit of media panic in the 90's, being called Cop Killer bullets, as they were rumored to penetrate police's bulletproof vests, resulting in a couple of states banning Teflon-coated bullets. Frank White was quite aware of it and here used it to make sure the cop wouldn't survive), taking the risk of firing back when caught by the police, and selling the officer's gun after killing him.

Thinking on his feet?

After killing two cops with Stretch, both decide to grow dreads in order to avoid matching the physical description police would be given. When caught by an officer anyway, fully aware that he's unable to run away, he chose to take risks and fire back with Teflon bullets.

What about the competition?

None whatsoever. Anyone on his way, while an issue, ends up dead, as three cops can tell.

Any more mitigating factors?

It may sounds barebones, since we're ultimately focusing on what? 4 verses of the song. And only The Notorious B.I.G. and Stretch's verses because 2Pac, Dramacydal and Buju Banton's verses make no mention of this specific story. Up to you if it is too barebones or not.

No specific mention of bitch or whore that could end up mitigating (in fact I don't even remember a female character in the song). Bitch is mentioned once in E.D.I. Mean's verse to refer to the police if I'm not mistaken. Thus, it has no effect on the Notorious B.I.G. and Stretch's verses.

Is he a bastard?

Drug dealer and Cop Killer, having killed two cops alongside Stretch and having killed one by himself.

Too much of a bastard?

Really, these are his only crimes. It's rap generic villainy in it's finest.

Verdict?

Your call.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Feb 6th 2020 at 9:39:06 PM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#15425: Feb 4th 2020 at 5:57:16 AM

Abstain on Frank.


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