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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#15376: Feb 1st 2020 at 11:48:18 AM

Cut these two unapproved entries:

From Thirsty's YMMV page (I Cut Listed the page since there was nothing else on it):

  • Chet, the mastermind behind Christopher's vampirism.

From FoxTrot:

  • Jason can be quite cunning when he doesn't let his ego or Complexity Addiction trip him up. In one storyline, he promised to exact revenge on Peter within the next twenty-four hours, thus forcing Peter to hide away in fear for that time, even getting in trouble in the process.

Edited by falcontalons on Feb 1st 2020 at 11:50:49 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#15377: Feb 1st 2020 at 4:36:34 PM

[tup] Kate.

Abstain on Buster.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#15378: Feb 1st 2020 at 4:43:55 PM

Yeah, that's a [tup] to Kate. Great book, great movie.

I have a couple future candidates whose defeats are a bit humiliating. Would those disqualify them?

Also, I have another future candidate where two different versions of the film exist (only change is one has the theatrical ending and the other has the alternate ending). The linchpin in each is a decision the villain makes, but both fit his character perfectly. Would I have to watch both versions of the film or is it enough just to have seen the film one way, but seen the other ending too?

Also, while none of the Ghostfaces from the Scream movies count for this, maybe Cotton Weary does come to think of it. I'll rewatch the movies and maybe do an EP.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 1st 2020 at 5:16:46 AM

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#15379: Feb 1st 2020 at 5:27:27 PM

@future: For your first question, I'd say just EP the characters you have in mind and see what we think; for your second question, I'd say the latter option would be fine.

Edited by falcontalons on Feb 1st 2020 at 5:28:05 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#15380: Feb 1st 2020 at 5:59:12 PM

[up]Okay. I added them all to my list on the page.

Since the recent F9 trailer revealed that Han is alive, should the entry for Deckard be updated to reflect that or should we wait until two weeks after the movie comes out?

Before I decide to nix George Deckert from my list (he's a rejected CM candidate and I know they're discouraged), I want to rewatch the movie first to see if there's a case to be made for this. If not, I'll take him to Hate Sink instead.

How's this for a quote on Katherine:

Tess McGill: "What if he doesn't?...pop the question?"
Katherine Parker: "I really don't think that's a variable. We're in the same city now, I've indicated that I'm receptive to an offer, I've cleared the month of June... and I am, after all, me."

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 1st 2020 at 6:02:06 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#15381: Feb 1st 2020 at 6:23:38 PM

Any other votes on Edelgard or should I start writing her write-up?

But abstaining on Buster.

Go for proposing them by the way. You won't know if a character has a shot until you propose them, it's not like there's a heinous standard to be considered like with Complete Monster. Glad to hear Edelgard might go up after all.

Edited by Klavice on Feb 1st 2020 at 6:24:14 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#15382: Feb 1st 2020 at 6:43:18 PM

I mwan... Alternate endings are, by definition, non-canon, so I don't see the point in including them in the EP.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#15383: Feb 1st 2020 at 7:05:01 PM

[up]There's a version of the film WITH the alternate ending though (DVD feature). Even without the alternate ending however, I can totally make a case for this character.

No one have anything to say about the quote?

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 1st 2020 at 9:01:37 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#15384: Feb 1st 2020 at 7:53:38 PM

[up][up][up] If the majority of [tup] outnumber the [tdown] by at least 5, I'd says it enough for give Edelgard a write-up

Also abstain on Buster

Edited by G-Editor on Feb 1st 2020 at 5:56:18 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#15385: Feb 2nd 2020 at 5:14:25 AM

After talking it over with Lighty I’ll give her a yes as well.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#15386: Feb 2nd 2020 at 5:45:11 AM

[tup]edelgard.

Since I forgot to vote in her.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#15387: Feb 2nd 2020 at 6:34:22 AM

Alright, since I've got shit going on today I'm gonna fire this one up now:

  • Dragonlance:
    • Raistlin Majere starts as a frail, sickly magician, cursed by god and mage alike. Desiring ultimate power, Raistlin goes back in time, to study under the most powerful dark wizard ever, Fistandantilus, murdering him when he tries to steal Raistlin's life force. Raisltin then proceeds to organize a war to get himself close to a gate leading to the abyss, manipulating a holy cleric named Crysania into falling in love with him to help him open it. With this achieved, Raistlin intends to lure out the supreme Dark Goddess Takhisis so he can kill her, take her place and then usurp the rest of the gods, all while abandoning Crysania to death when he needs her no longer. Raistlin manipulates countless people along his path, from the forces of darkness to the armies of light, coming within a hair of achieving his goals. The only thing that stops him is a pang of conscience when he sees his brother Caramon, instead opting to sacrifice himself to rescue Caramon and Crysania in the end. Even after his death, Raistlin occasionally resurfaces to pull off a new gambit to assist his family, being feared even by the gods themselves.
    • Fistandantilus the Dark was one of the greatest mages who ever lived, and his ambition and scheming would shape centuries of Krynn's history. As told in the Kingpriest Trilogy, he carefully masterminded Beldinas's rise to power over the course of decades in order to create a suitable pawn to help him become a god; though Beldinas ultimately proved unsuitable for the role, Fistandantilus was able to quickly adjust his schemes and find a suitable replacement. Failing in his goals only due to random chance, his spirit nonetheless persisted and was able to groom Raistlin into a suitable successor - and even when Raistlin turned the tables and consumed Fistandantilus's soul, he was unable to escape his legacy and continued to carry out the schemes Fistandantilus had laid down to their bitter end. From the rise of the Kingpriest to the War of the Lance, Fistandantilus's subtle hand shaped much of Krynn's history, cementing his legend as its most powerful, cunning and feared wizard.
    • The nameless red dragon narrator from The Best disguises himself as a human to find the best adventurers who have a chance of destroying him. Luring them into a treasure hunt, the dragon brings them to his lair, only to ambush them and wipe them out completely while they barely have a chance to fight back so the dragon may simply enjoy his treasure without fear of pesky dragon slayers, distinguishing himself via incredible charm and wit in the narrative.
  • Holes: Katherine Barlow was once a school teacher driven to rage and heartbreak at the racist killing of her African-American lover, Sam. Murdering her town's sheriff for failing to intervene, she becomes the infamous bandit known as "Kissin' Kate", robbing countless men to accumulate a vast amount of wealth. Even at gunpoint, Kate refuses to give up her treasure and as she dies from a poisonous lizard's bite, spitefully tells her interrogator to "Start digging".
  • FreeSpace: Admiral Aken Bosch spends the entirety of the game attempting to ally with the Destroyers — aka the Shivans — whom he believes are unstoppable and will never be defeated regardless of the efforts of the Galactic Terran-Vasudan Alliance (GTVA). When the players are tasked with a squadron to intercept and disable his ship, Bosch openly sends a communication channel to the player and taunts them, questioning the competence of their commanders as he warps out of the system, well before the players have any chance at hitting him, just before a Shivan fleet ambushes the player's squadron. He frequently outsmarts the entire GTVA command in his capital ship, and when it looks like he's finally been caught when his ship is disabled and boarded, it's found out that he had planned a ruse which included the capture of his ship and all of his crew all along, and he had actually used the confusion to escape alone on-board a Shivan transport, showing more ingenuity and unpredictability than even the inscrutable alien race.
  • Resident Evil series:
    • HUNK is a high-ranking commander of the Umbrella Security Service known by the monikers "Mr. Death" and "Grim Reaper" for always surviving and completing Umbrella's most dangerous missions. First appearing in 2 (and its Remake), HUNK leads Umbrella's Alpha Team to Raccoon City to retrieve the G-Virus from William Birkin. Despite losing his team to the mutated Birkin, HUNK remains committed to completing his mission and successfully delivers the G-Virus to Umbrella after spending days surviving the zombie-infested city. He also delivers a special container from Antartica to Rockfort Island on Alfred Ashford's request, though he does question Ashford on what's inside it. Although Umbrella collapses in 2003, HUNK's legacy would remain where he becomes a legendary mercenary whose skills are second to none.
    • Revelations: Raymond Vester and Jessica Sherawat are spies sent by TRICELL Inc. to retrieve a sample of the T-abyss virus. To divert everyone from discovering their true agendas, they would work on opposing sides; Raymond would collaborate with BSAA director Clive R. O'Brian to stage a fake kidnapping of Chris Redfield luring Jill Valentine and Parker Luciani onto the ship, Queen Zenobia, allowing them to learn the truth behind the destruction of Terragrigia, while Jessica would become The Mole for FBC commissioner Morgan Lansdale infiltrating the BSAA to destroy any evidence linking Lansdale's involvement in said destruction. Escaping the sinking ship, Jessica and Raymond would meet up where Raymond hands over the virus to Jessica before they go their separate ways.
  • Big L's "Casualties of a Dice Game", video by Bizerk: In this fan-made animation based on the late Harlem rapper's 2000 eponymous song, the protagonist wins a cee-lo game and subsequently gets the other players' money. After dropping his friend Lroc at a McDonald's, the protagonist, coming back home by car, realizes that he's being pursued by the losers of the cee-lo game. When his friend Bones refuses to help him because he's busy having sex, the protagonist improvises by accelerating and then brutally stopping his car, sending his pursuers' car crashing into it. Keeping his calm despite being heavily wounded and bleeding, the protagonist then finishes off his pursuers. Going to Bones' home, he kills his former friend for refusing to help him. When the police attempts to stop him as he tries to reach the hospital, he triggers a gunfight, kills a policeman, forcing the other one to hide as the protagonist leaves to a nearby park. Giving his money to a couple of kids playing there, the protagonist succumbs to his wounds and enters heaven before the police catches up with him.

Imperial I think you got all the potholes you wanted and I've edited everything I wanted to so I'll just run this in an hour or so.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#15388: Feb 2nd 2020 at 7:12:07 AM

Actually there's a bunch in pending and not a lot in drafts atm, I'll hold on this till next week.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#15389: Feb 2nd 2020 at 9:13:07 AM

@future, just because a character doesn't count as a CM or an MB doesn't mean they do count as a Hate Sink.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#15390: Feb 2nd 2020 at 12:21:10 PM

[up]I know that too.

If that quote for Katherine isn't good enough, I have another one I'll post some point soon.

Also, 43 gave me permission to move Miranda into the Film section on the YMMV and I did. I have a good quote or two for her too.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 2nd 2020 at 3:31:49 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#15391: Feb 2nd 2020 at 2:30:55 PM

Alright, having watched a playthrough of the Vice Kings missions and a few scenes from Saints Row IV, I think I'm ready to do a Benjamin King EP.

What's the work?

Saints Row is a series of Wide-Open Sandbox video games where you play as a career criminal. While the similarities with the Grand Theft Auto series are obvious, Saints Row manages to distinguish itself through its Denser and Wackier tone. Today, we'll be focusing on the first game, where the playa more or less falls into joining the Third Street Saints. A big part of the game is taking down three rival gangs. One of these gangs is the Vice Kings, a largely African-American gang led by our candidate.

Who are they? What have they done?

Benjamin "Motherfucking" King is the founder and leader of the Vice Kings, one of the three major gangs in Stilwater. Described as "both a professional and a badass" by Johnny Gat, King is undoubtedly one of the most powerful people in the city.

Back in the 1970s, a gang called Los Carnales was formed in the city of Stilwater. With backing from Colombian drug cartels, they spread through the city like a wildfire. It seemed like nothing could stop them.

But then Benjamin King happened.

Tiring of the violence in their neighborhood of Sunnyvale Gardens, King and his childhood friend Julius Little (who I think also has a good chance of qualifying for MB status) organized the local youths into a new gang, the Vice Kings. They were the first to effectively fight back. And effective they certainly were. In a matter of days, this new gang drove Los Carnales out of their hood. Rather than stop there, he decided to fight them for the rest of Stilwater, a decision that made Julius uncomfortable. In a matter of months, the Vice Kings had greatly diminished their enemies' power and and usurped their position as the dominant gang in Stilwater. But this came at a price: King lost sight of why he was fighting and his gang had just become another Los Carnales. Julius quit in disgust, retiring to Saint's Row.

Fast forward to the events of the game. Los Carnales have recovered significantly and a new gang called the Westside Rollerz has muscled in, but the Vice Kings are still going strong. In the intervening years, King has become a "public darling" through his philanthropy, founded a record company called Kingdom Come Records, and cultivated connections with city hall and the police force. While the Vice Kings still run gambling and prostitution rackets, King has decided to focus more on white-collar crime, a decision some of his subordinates disagree with.

It's at about this time that a new gang called the 3rd Street Saints, led by Julius Little, starts going to war against the other three gangs in the city, including the Vice Kings. Starting their campaign by foiling a series of attempted kidnappings by Vice Kings lieutenant Tanya, they subsequently blow up the Kingdom Come Records headquarters (faking Aisha's death in the process so she can get out of a bad contract) and subsequently take over Prawn Court. But King quickly figures out ways to recoup the losses and decides to have the police put pressure on the Saints. However, the Saints fight back, foiling an attempt to take back Prawn Court. Then Gat and Playa decide to lead an attack on an abandoned police station Tanya's using as a hideout to try and eliminate her. But it was actually a trap set by King, resulting in the arrest of many Saints and Gat being captured by Tanya and her boyfriend Big Tony, with the Playa only narrowly escaping.

After this, however, the Playa kills Big Tony and saves Gat. Then they go back on the offensive. After the Saints cause yet more complications for King, Warren and Tanya decide to stage a coup, seizing leadership of the Vice Kings. But they fail to kill King, and Julius sends the Playa to help him escape. The two cut a swathe through Warren and Tanya's faction, leaving Warren for dead before fleeing to Saint's Row.

Julius then meets up with King for the first time in years and gives him an ultimatum: bow out of the game or die. Having no choice, King reluctantly agrees to drop his flags and leave town, on the condition that he first helps them take down Tanya so he can complete his revenge. After playing a major role in neutralizing some of the remaining Vice Kings patrols, King storms his former headquarters with Playa and Gat, an assault that culminates in him personally sending Tanya plummeting to her death. Before leaving, he gives the Playa the keys to his penthouse, saying he won't be needing it anymore.

In the subsequent years, King manages to find success as a law-abiding citizen. First, he writes a best-selling book about the rise and fall of the Vice Kings, one that gets adapted into a major motion picture. After this, he manages the Playa's successful presidential campaign and becomes Chief of Staff.

Magnificence?

No doubt is he smart. King established a powerful and lasting criminal empire by knowing when to build, when to wait, and when to act. He branched out into legitimate business, made very useful government and law enforcement connections, and made himself one of the most widely respected men in Stilwater. And he shows that he's good at recovering from setbacks, even ones that may seem crippling. When he's forced out of the game, he bounces back splendidly and eventually ends up in a very important White House position.

He's got the charm of an MB too, being full of charisma and enjoying a status as one of the series' most memorable characters. There are damn good reasons he eventually came back in Saints Row IV.

Bastardy?

Let's not mince words. King's definitely a bastard, at least in the first game. You don't get to be a major crime boss by being a marshmallow. While he did start off with good intentions, he quickly got corrupted by his new lifestyle and focused on self-advancement. Even as a music industry executive he's kind of a bastard, forcing artists into exploitative contracts.

On the other hand, he's got quite a few lines he won't cross and isn't evil in ways that undermine his magnificence. He doesn't get involved in the drug trade, for one, and Tanya's attempt to force kidnapped women into prostitution was clearly done behind his back. Moreover, he's genuinely friendly and decent to work for, and shows remarkable patience with Warren's repeated attempts to challenge his authority. Even after he decides enough is enough, he decides to force Warren to retire rather than killing him, and only tries to kill him in retaliation for him leading an attempt on King's own life. He also disapproves of the Playa running over pedestrians.

What's the competition like?

King does get blindsided by Warren and Tanya's betrayal, but he quickly recovers after his initial surprise and manages to escape. And unlike them, he manages to land on his feet. Warren gets betrayed by Tanya and doesn't make it out, while Tanya ends up a victim of King's revenge.

Besides, they pale in comparison to him, and not just because they have lighter skin. Warren is a hothead with an almost pathological need to prove himself, and he fails to understand the long-term benefits of King's more nuanced and pragmatic approach. He's also wrapped around Tanya's little finger. Speaking of Tanya, while she is a very skilled manipulator, she's also a massive Smug Snake who alienates more than half the Vice Kings after taking over and spends her last moments pathetically begging for her life. So it's pretty clear that King comes out on top in comparison.

Any mitigating factors?

Well, he does use the (soft-"R") n-word a few times, but for obvious reasons, I'd say he gets a pass on that.

Conclusion

As the man himself puts it: "My name is Benjamin muthafuckin' King. I'm the man who took my crew from being a bunch of baby gangstas in Sunnyvale to being one of the most influential and feared forces in the goddamn city." Definitely a keeper IMO. [tup]

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Feb 2nd 2020 at 7:29:35 AM

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#15398: Feb 2nd 2020 at 7:34:35 PM

[tup]king

So I discussed a villain on the cm thread from this work the folk of the air and so will do an mb post. Its NOT the same guy since that villain is legit gross but another far cooler villain.

Whats the work

The Folk of the Air is a YA fantasy trilogy by Holly Black and set in the same universe as Modern Faerie Tales. The books in the trilogy are The Cruel Prince, The Wicked King, and The Queen of Nothing.

Jude and her twin Taryn are ordinary human girls whose life is forever altered when their parents are murdered by their mother's first husband. The faerie who killed their parents in order to have revenge and reclaim his heir, their older sister, takes responsibility for the children he orphaned, taking Jude and her sister back with him to Elfhame.

Growing up a human in the world of faeries, Jude has lived her life as an underdog who keeps her head down to avoid it being chopped off, and is sick of living in fear. In particular, she is sick of being the punching bag of the local bully, Prince Cardan, the cruel youngest son of the soon-to-abdicate king who singles out her in particular when looking for someone to put down.

She aims to turn her life around by securing whatever power she can, and in doing so throws herself into the heart of a battle for control over the future of the crown.

Finally have a new ep

Who is General Madoc

The cunning, high general in charge of the kings army. Madoc is a redcap who married a human woman who eventually became pregnant. She one day learnt of a prophecy that her child would be the downfall of the kingdom, deicing to avoid fate. She murdered another woman and made it seem like she and her unborn daughter had perished and ran off with one of madocs human servants. With whom she eventually produced twin girls jude and taryn.

Anyway madoc was eventually informed of the fact his wife and heir were alive by balekin who needed it to get him on his side. Madoc arrived and a fight ended up breaking out by accident when judes father attacked Jim which leaves both of judes parents dead. He then takes his daughter back and adopts jude and Tayrn due to his honour as well as being th official rules of fey. Over the Yeats he's grows to care for them even thinking them of his own children.

Anyway Madoc is more tilted towards war and it's nature die to being a redcap since in this series they favour bloodshed. Hes grown bored of eldred's stagnant and old reign and wishes to now take over and rule as a conquering king. Unfortunately thanks to his vow to the crown, he can't make a direct move. So plots with balekin to usurp it. Anyway Madoc sets it up perfectly, the doors are locked, guards are posted in bigger numbers but not to the extant if raising attention. And then when the crown comes off eldred's head to crown his favored son dain, Balekin walks in and with h in takes control. Trying to force eldred to give it to balekin and what leads to the massacre of the rest of edldreds kids expect Cardan. Balekin thinks madoc is a loyal puppet. He's wrong.

In reality Madocs youngest son oak is actually prince dain's son. Dain had attempted to have his pregnant lover poisoned as he has heard that his son would be his undoing. Well the mother died, her friend removed the baby and was able to keep him alive. She later married Madoc as his second wife . With madoc releasing that the kid, Oak would allow him a puppet King as a descendant of mab to allow him rule (No more second Fiddle), though he did grow to legitimately care for the boy. He even personally kills dain in the massacre that balekin starts specifically for the fact he dared nearly kill oak. It would also allow Jim to be the one in charge, not balekin.

Anyway Jude is able to get Oak to crown Cardan as king destroying both balekin and Madocs ambitions and she defated him by poisoning him while they were having a meal (its just a knock out drug. She wasnt going to actually kill him since he is at the end of her day, her father).

Anyway next book, Wicked King, Madoc is now once again bound by the crown so cant directly fight against it. So after cardan gets poisoned by Balekin he gets an idea due to the close bond between Jude and Cardan. He sends Jude's twin sister Tayrn and has her convince Cardan to allow him to both be free of his vows as well as get half of the army. Going into exile and having convinced Grimsen (THE BLACKSMITH WHO CREATED THE CROWN TO HELP HIM)

Anyway final book Queen of nothing, After Taryn kills her abusive husband (Both jude and Madoc told her not to marry that creep but she didnt listen to them), she sends Jude in her place as the lie detectors they'll use to determine if she did kill him wont work on her. Madoc though arranges a rescue mission to save his daughter who he thought was Taryn. He is able to sneak in and rescue her and the two enjoy a genuine. Anyway her friends comes to save her (though hes cloaked so none notices its him and hes quiet around madoc). Madoc reveals he figured out it was Jude the two duel, Jude is injured and Madoc gives care to her to the rest of the heroes so she can get medical attetnion.

Jude having sneaked into his chambers beforehand noticed a note which seems to imply that he plans to use his assaain to assassinate Cardan. She races their after being healed and...finds him fine. You see it was a plant. Madoc sent the assain to hit Queen Orlagh of the undersea with a debailting posion to put her under his thumb. This would force her daughter Nicassia whose cardans friend to not get involved in helping cardan and force them to fight for him. Which would now have him them outnumbered.

Anyway as part of a temporary negotaion, Madoc reveals to Cardan that he wishes the best of elfhame and believes cardan to be weak. He challenges him to prove that the people respect him more, this sort of sets off Cardan who does want to prove himself so he breaks the crown to prove that yes that crown is nothing comapred to the peoples will. Unfornutely its cursed so turns him into a ginat snake monster which threathens the kingdom and runs off.

Madoc and Jude join forces with Jude eventually using the power of the land as one of its monarchs to defeat the snake. After being killed from it, Cardan emerges from it and with both armies bowing to Jude and cardan as their new monarchs showing the people really are on their side. Madoc himself bows and takes his defeat and exile quite gracefully, being genuinely proud of his daughter for showing her stuff and beating him.

Magnificence ?

Why yes. Hes a worldy, general type with a knack for the arts and philosophy. You dont see that archetype very often. His mind is always trying to find a way to outplay someone having turned the tables on Balkin who thought he could control him. Using a very small window to free himself from the vows to the crown. And more importanlty totally disabling any way cardan could have fought back. He would have won too if it weren't for the giant snake forcing an Enemy Mine and even then he knows when to fold and acknowledge hes lost and bow out gracefully to his daughter

Bastard ? Too much?

Madoc is bad I wont lie to you. Hes a warmongerer who lives for battle and glory and desires to put himself on top and he did murder his wife but being fair that was a heat of the moment after they tried to kill him after he legit just came to talk. And he adopted her kids out of his sense of honor and legit does love them. He was also revolted by Dain poising his pregnat wife and well he did help Balekin with the coup. He betarys his king and did back stab Cardan and jude by taking advanatge of Cardan ebing out of his mind. The actual massacre of balekins family though was carried out by balekin with Madoc only really killing Dain because of what he did to Oak. The rest was all Balekin. He also genuinely believes hes best for Elfhame and that he could lead it into a golden expansionist age and when he sees the people view cardan and jude as better, bows out gracefully. Compare to a monster like Blakin who targets civilains on and cares nothing for his family, the pragmatic and wie Madoc comes out far better. Hes a bad man just not a vile one.

Conclusion ?

An awesome keeper in my opinion but we'll see what you think.

Edited by miraculous on Feb 3rd 2020 at 2:33:38 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#15399: Feb 3rd 2020 at 2:51:25 AM

[tup] Madoc.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature

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