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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#15326: Jan 30th 2020 at 6:23:05 PM

Been ages since I watched the movie or read the book but I’d hear the case for Kate.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#15327: Jan 30th 2020 at 9:53:59 PM

I know that my brother says he doesn't think Edelgard counts since apparently she makes a lot of mistakes and doesn't think things through. But I myself can't make judgment on Edelgard since I only played, like, 3 hours worth of Three Houses.

And yeah, gonna second the opinion of Hamlet not being a keeper. He's like, completely lacking in the charisma factor.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#15328: Jan 30th 2020 at 10:02:26 PM

I'd be open to discussing Kissin' Kate, but Hamlet doesn't sound promising.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#15329: Jan 30th 2020 at 10:08:30 PM

Good Men, good men, whatcha gonna do?

Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?

...

...Yeah, that shit don't sound right.

Bad Boys for Life is the third installment in the Bad Boys series, arguably the one set of movies made by Michael Bay that I will die defending. And while Michael Bay isn't the director this time around, there's still plenty of asses, shootouts, explosions, bullets, and dead bodies to keep your everyday action junkie satisfied. This installment still focuses on Marcus Burnett and Mike Lowrey, albeit now they're older, with the former on the verge of retiring. However, just as the duo consider settling down for the rest of their lives, these two antagonists come along and start making their lives much more complicated.

Who Are They?

Isabel Aretas and Armando Armas are a Villainous Mother-Son Duo of Mexican gangsters who are out for revenge against those who helped dismantle the Aretas Cartel and got Isabel sent to prison. Isabel is also a former fling of Mike's, and Armando is secretly Mike's son.

What Do They Do?

While Isabel is in prison, a security guard is lured into the laundry room, and is promptly attacked and killed by Isabel and various other prisoners. Isabel takes the guard's uniform and poses as a wounded guard, where she's quickly put in an ambulance and escorted out of prison. The ambulance reaches a roadblock constructed by Armando, and when the vehicle stops, the two of them slaughter all the guards and paramedics in and around the ambulance. Both of them successfully escape. After relocating in Mexico City, Isabel gives Armando a list of names and sends him out to Miami to complete his hit list. She specifies to save Mike Lowrey for last, but Armando goes against her wishes and guns him down in the middle of the street. Fortunately, Mike survives. During a six-month Time Skip, Armando obeys his mother's wishes and starts killing all the other people on his hit list. After killing informant Carver Remy mere minutes before Mike and Marcus can save him, he encounters Mike in person and gets into a fierce fight with him. Armando fends off Mike and escapes.

To get even further under Mike's skin, Armando assassinates Captain Conrad Howard right next to Mike while they're attending Howard's daughter's soccer game. With everyone else on the list dead, Isabel gives Armando permission to kill Mike, and to tell him "Hasta el fuego" before killing him. Armando isn't seen again for some time until Mike, Marcus, and their allies from Advanced Miami Metro Operations (AMMO) track down one of Armando's associates, a gangster named Zway-Lo. Zway-Lo calls for reinforcements as Mike and Marcus chase after him, and Armando picks up Zway-Lo via ladder dangling from a chopper. Mike also latches onto the same ladder, thus forcing Armando to kill Zway-Lo so he won't block his shot at Mike. Armando prepares to murder Mike, but Marcus fires at the chopper, giving Mike time to escape.

Mike, Marcus, and their allies head to Mexico to take out Isabel and Armando once and for all at Hidalgo Palace. Although Isabel and Armando predict the duo's arrival and come close to killing them, they don't anticipate AMMO's ambush. Isabel and Armando's forces engage in a huge firefight at Hidalgo Palace that ends with most of Isabel's goons dead. Mike and Armando get into another fistfight and almost kill each other, until Mike decides to tell him he's his father. Eventually, Armando stops and asks his mother if Mike is telling the truth. She confesses, but tries to kill Mike regardless. Armando instinctively stands in Mike's way and is accidentally shot. Furious, Isabel tries to shoot Mike again, only to get shot to death by AMMO leader Rita. Armando survives, but is arressted. In a post-credit scene, Mike approaches Armando in prison and tells him he might be able to get him released early if he helps the police with a certain task.

And now we wait twenty years for Bad Boys 4Ever. :D

Are They Charming? Charismatic? Magnificent?

They're a Brains and Brawn duo, and they both excel in their departments. Isabel is the one who comes up with all the schemes, manufacturing her own prison escape and finding the identities of all the people who got her thrown in prison to begin with. So on that note, she's smart and resourceful, assisting her son from afar and knowing what tricks the police tend to use (such as when Mike tries to sneak into her palace wearing a bugged necklace). She's very patient and knows that anger and losing your temper for superflous reasons accomplishes nothing. Even when Isabel reunites with Mike, she isn't frothing at the mouth waiting to murder him. They just reconnect with each other before Isabel nonchalantly realizes that Mike has to die. Her reasons for wanting Mike dead are understandable too, as Mike was an undercover agent who had sex with Isabel and planned on running away with her, only for Mike to turn around and get her sent to prison, where she had Armando in jail.

Meanwhile, Armando is a competent fighter who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty, and obeys his mother whenever he has to. There's a scene where Armando is buying weapons off a dealer and his goons, and the dealer immediately betrays him and tries to kill him. Armando effortlessly and calmly gets the drop on all of them, killing them all in a matter of seconds and then allying himself with Zway-Lo and his men as opposed to outright killing them too. Armando is also smart enough to track down his targets and take them all out on his own, and knows how to evade the police on multiple occasions without getting caught, even holding his own against Mike Lowrey. The only time Armando breaks from this behavior is when he finds out Mike is his father, and he hesitantly starts defending him, even taking a bullet for the guy. There is also a moment where he disobeys his mother and goes after Mike first, and while Armando does get a little upset over their argument, he does calm down and goes back to performing his duties properly.

Are They Bastards? Too Bastardy?

Definitely. It's debatable who's worse than who, but they're both equally despicable. Shortly after Mike is released from the hospital, Armando uploads a recording of himself gunning down Mike onto the dark web because he knows it'll piss off Mike, which it does. He also goes out of his way to murder Captain Howard at his daughter's soccer game right next to Mike, just to have him carry the weight of his death on his shoulders—not to mention the various other law enforcement and government officials he assassinates. Meanwhile, Isabel is more than okay with murdering paramedics just to facilitate her escape, and ordering her son to do her dirty work outside of Mexico. She even kept Mike's identity as Armando's father a secret, because she personally didn't think it mattered.

They're not heartless bastards though. Isabel genuinely loves her son; when she shot him, that was completely by accident, and she's visibly shocked over what she's done. Meanwhile, Armando is a cruel prick, but he refuses to needlessly kill civilians. After Armando assassinates Howard, he almost took out Mike too, but a referee blocked his shot. Even after Zway-Lo pressured him to just shoot them both, Armando couldn't do it. Armando also doesn't go over the top with his assassinations. He murders his targets and his targets only; he doesn't go out and say...I dunno, blow up an entire crowded restaurant just to kill one guy, like a certain someone did in Boardwalk Empire...

Conclusion?

Not sure. Does Isabel count, but not Armando? Does Armando count, but not Isabel? Do they both count? Do neither of them count?

You guys can decide on that.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#15330: Jan 30th 2020 at 10:24:38 PM

Almost kind of felt Isabel was a smidge too petty for me. Going to think about it more.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#15331: Jan 30th 2020 at 11:06:51 PM

Isabel sounds like a keeper. Armando was a bit more iffy since he reminds me of my downvoted first candidate in many ways, but he seems to be good enough with Xanatos Speed Chess for me to be comfortable with him.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jan 31st 2020 at 10:25:59 AM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#15333: Jan 31st 2020 at 4:38:02 AM

[tup] Isabel and Armando.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#15334: Jan 31st 2020 at 4:51:54 AM

I'll give a yes to both.

Don't fuck a married witch, especially without a condom [lol]

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#15336: Jan 31st 2020 at 5:05:17 AM

[tup]Isabel and Armando

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#15339: Jan 31st 2020 at 7:49:11 AM

Another candidate I'm kinda iffy on, but she's at least worth a shot :

What's the work?

Hospitality is a creepypasta written by AustinDR and is based on Hansel and Gretel's tale, again.

Again, Hansel and Gretel are wandering around a forest. Again, they find a house. Again, they are welcomed by a old woman who turns out to be a Wicked Witch.

(That was an interesting version of the tale. I'd recommend it. But if you are interested, don't read this EP)

Or not so wicked, actually. Or more accurately, barely wicked enough to be our candidate.

Who is the Wicked Witch? What has she done?

The Wicked Witch is introduced barely preventing Hansel from eating her pie. Sadly for her, her golden necklace is a bit too beautiful for Gretel, who consequently plans, with her brother, to kill the unfortunate woman, take her necklace, any other interesting valuable, and escape. However, the Witch, while keeping her facade of a frail, dumb old woman, see right through Hansel & Gretel's intents, and has no intention of giving her necklace.

Hansel & Gretel subsequently attempt to kill the witch. At first glance, it seems that they succeeded. However, after killing her, the siblings realizes that their already acquired riches are gone. Accusing Hansel of having hidden them, Gretel attempts to kill him, but Hansel defends himself quite well and is just as willing to kill his sister.

Exactly what the Wicked Witch planned.

At first glance it seems like she didn't expect them to stop fighting upon noticing a door that wasn't there before. Wondering if their riches were there, they enter the room... Only to discover nothing but darkness. They can't go back either : the door vanished. And they are trapped in a cage.

Turns out, the witch's necklace saved her from certain death and the door was there as plan B, just in case the siblings didn't end up killing each other. The woman reveals that while she went through Adaptational Heroism, she still is a Wicked Witch.

It's heavily implied that the witch killed Hansel and Gretel and used them to bake her cookies, before burying their remains.

When two kids implied to be the original Hansel and Gretel shows up, the witch, instead of killing them... Give them some cookies and the adult Hansel and Gretel's riches before letting them go.

Is she charming? Intelligent ?

The Wicked Witch is an Affably Evil fellow who has no problem with posing as a weak, nice and helpless old woman, easily fooling the siblings into thinking that she hasn't found out their hidden depravity. She pulls an efficient Batman Gambit, faking her death and stealing Hansel & Gretel's riches, expecting Gretel accuse Hansel and to kill him. While she gloats upon having captured them, it's made clear that they aren't escaping this time and the Wicked Witch can take her time.

Thinking on her feet?

She isn't a one-trick pony. The magical door was created to lure Hansel & Gretel in just in case they chose not to kill each other.

What about the competition?

None whatsoever. Hansel & Gretel, the main protagonists, are fooled start to finish, and the canon Hansel & Gretel have no knowledge of the... Ingredients she used to bake the cookies she gave them.

Is she a bastard?

Even though Hansel & Gretel are Asshole Victims, the Wicked Witch still is wicked, and I Am a Humanitarian isn't something particularly heroic, nor is it portrayed as heroic here. It's still a creepypasta, after all

That being said, she isn't that bad barring that (especially when compared to Hansel, Gretel or fellow cannibal Hannibal Lecter), and her Pet the Dog moment in the end definitely shows that she has a heart.

Verdict?

Leaning [tdown], but I'll let you decide.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jan 31st 2020 at 4:52:28 PM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#15340: Jan 31st 2020 at 9:28:10 AM

No, as I've said before, I'm pretty against these "smartly torments a CM (or in this case CM-proposal) villain" as I think you can viciously kill one if you want and still not be bad enough, at the end of the day you're doing the world a favour by removing them from it.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#15342: Jan 31st 2020 at 9:34:32 AM

@43110. Got it.

Georgie shrugs.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#15343: Jan 31st 2020 at 12:21:13 PM

Been reading a lot of Sherlock Holmes lately and watching the Sherlock Holmes TV series starring Jeremy Brett. Any chance that Holmes himself counts? Or is he not worth an EP?

Edited by k410ren on Jan 31st 2020 at 3:21:24 PM

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#15344: Jan 31st 2020 at 12:27:46 PM

When is he enough of a bastard?

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#15346: Jan 31st 2020 at 2:20:14 PM

That’s not enough. Being a jerk does not make you an MB

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#15347: Jan 31st 2020 at 2:31:56 PM

Exactly, same reason I’m opposed to listing the likes of Olivia Armstrong, Korosensei, Kakashi Hatake, etc.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#15348: Jan 31st 2020 at 2:41:46 PM

If you wanna go in that direction, I'd feel someone like Rick or House would be closer to the Archetype you're thinking of. But both of them don't count, Rick because I feel he gets too monstrous, and both of them have an absolute wreck of a personal life.

Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 31st 2020 at 5:45:45 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#15349: Jan 31st 2020 at 2:50:18 PM

[tup] to Isabell and Armando

Edited by G-Editor on Jan 31st 2020 at 12:50:30 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#15350: Jan 31st 2020 at 7:25:55 PM

Can we get some more input on Edelgard before we proceed on that one?


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