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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#15301: Jan 29th 2020 at 12:45:21 AM

Working on Edelgard's effortpost since no one else offered to take her and I don't see her on anyone's to do list (that I know of). I have pretty high hopes of her counting but she (sorta) gets played by Those Who Slither in the Dark. She is certainly enough of a bastard, but my main concern is can TH support a character that almost runs everything, especially since Fates (and I believe Awakening too) could not.

Edit: Finished the effortpost, I hope I didn't overlook someone else wanting to do her or anyhing that I missed. I tried to summarize her in a few small paragraphs so if there's anything anyone wants expounded on, I will gladly.

What's the work?

Fire Emblem: Three Houses is the fourteenth non-remake, Fire Emblem game having been released for the Nintendo Switch in the Summer of 2019. The game takes place at an academy run by clergymen and headed by the female Fire Emblem equivalent to the Pope, the archbishop Rhea. The game splits into four routes after a period of time, featuring the three heads of each house along with a fourth path featuring the administration of the school, namely: the clergymen.

Today's potential candidate is the leader of Black Eagles and a fairly stoic young lady Edelgard von Hresvelg or the seeming future Empress of the Adrestrian Empire, a region that is rather covered in foliage and flora, and is in the southern part of the continent of Fòdlan. The empire can be traced back one thousand years prior to the founder Wilhelm von Hresvelg, and today we will be discussing his descendant.

Who is Edelgard von Hresvelg

Edelgard is, as stated before, the house leader of Black Eagles and in a sense one of the game's main antagonists being behind quite a few events in the game.

She was born in the year 1162 as the 9th child of Emperor Ionius IX and is his sole surviving heir, due to experiments done by Those who slither in the dark a group of people who turned against the Goddess in ancient times, which turned her hair white, and Edelgard's reluctant allies similar to Sephiran reluctantly allying with Mad King Ashnard during the Tellius games.

She also goes under the guise of the Flame Emperor when using Those who slither in the dark as allies such as when she ordered an attack on the students of Garreg Monastery's Officer academy. Eventually, she convinces the Emperor to abdicate, and becomes the new Emperor of the Adrestrian Empire.

She is also the step-sister of Dimitri, crown prince of Faerghus.

Is she a bastard? Too much of one?

(I'm getting this talked about first as whether or not she is too much of one is an important question, which ought to be addressed before asking about her magnificence.)

Edelgard is a conqueror during the Black Eagles/Crimson Flower path, which is triggered if you choose to side with Edelgard during Chapter 17 and are part of the Black Eagles. Similar to Lelouch Vi Britannica, she tries to take over the world, starting with Garreg Mach Monastery, after being unmasked or disposing of her identity (Crimson Flower Route) as the Flame Emperor. She also incapicates Byleth and they go MIA, knowing fully well they would object. When Archbishop Rhea fights back, she defeats Rhea with the Black Eagle Strike force, and spends 5 years locked in a war with the Kingdom of Faerghus and the Leicester Alliance. After Byleth reunites with Edelgard, they take their forces to the Leicester alliance where she and Byleth defeat Yellow Deer at Derdriu. The player is then given a choice to execute or spare Claude. If the player executes Claude, they cannot recruit any of Yellow Deer. If the player spares them, Edelgard admits they have a heart too strong for war, but does not object while Claude thanks them and asks them to take care of Yellow Deer.

Next, The Church of Seiros also known as Rhea's faction, tries to take back Garreg Mach monastery, to which Rhea is defeated once more despite some major casualties Randolph being among them. Later on, at the Tailtean Plains, Dimitri, now replaced by [[Puppet King Puppet Queen] Cornelia, intercepts the Imperial army. After his defeat, Dimitri is executed coldly by Edelgard, who admits Dimitri was driven mad due to the machinations of the Church of Seiros and her uncle and mourns his death. At Fhirdiad, the capital city of the Kingdom of Faerghus where Rhea was hiding, Edelgard demands the Church surrender or be routed. In response, Rhea transforms into The Immaculate One who then orders the city burned showing Everyone Has Standards on Edelgard's side while Rhea thinks We Have Reserves and acts as a Bad Boss to her troops, Edelgard at least has camaraderie with her soldiers (for the most part). After Byleth apparently dies after slaying Rhea, Edelgard is mournful but surprised and happy when they return and begins a war against Those Who Slither in the Dark. So to sum it up, there are few lines Edelgard is willing to cross and yet, even she has standards and despite being incredibly cold, calculating, and ruthless she has a soft spot for her allies and simply wants to free Fòdlan from the iron grip of the Church of Seiros, at any cost believing the ends justify the means. Edelgard's personality and ambitions are a result of tragedies that painted her view of the world. The traumatic imprisonment of her siblings and herself due to the experiments of Those Who Slither in the Dark created her hatred of Crests. And she hates the Ardestrian nobles. So I would say she passes.

Is she intelligent? Charming? Able to think on her feet?

This is true. Despite being generally empathetic, in the Crimson Flower route she easily plays everyone aside from Rhea pretty easily and this is no small feat. She's generally pretty far ahead in her plans only failing if Byleth interfers on Silver Snow, Azure Moon, or Verdant Wind which she is executed by Rhea, Dimitri and Byleth respectively if she should fail. At the same token, she's extrenely cunning and generally has a backup plan for her failures, but she would never harm that many innocents and shows disgust for those that do.

Is she magnificent?

I would say so. Due to controlling much of the war and actually succeeding in one path or coming close to succeeding in several others again, only foiled by Byleth. She most certainly has the chops for this.

The Competition?

Thales and Rhea are her only real competition and Thales is murdered long before her, and despite being a schemer lacks magnificence and incredibly smug, while Rhea is a Sore Loser and has way too many mitigating factors against her. So I would say pass.

Verdict?

I will wait for you all to decide, due to my somewhat dubious history (thanks Hart Vortex) but I think we have a keeper. If anyone needs clarification on anything, let me know.

Edited by Klavice on Jan 29th 2020 at 2:34:37 AM

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#15302: Jan 29th 2020 at 12:17:05 PM
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#15303: Jan 29th 2020 at 12:19:09 PM

[tup] Edelgard.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#15306: Jan 29th 2020 at 4:54:05 PM

I'll give Edelgard a yea. I think she just makes it.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#15307: Jan 29th 2020 at 5:29:16 PM

Quick question before I give my verdict. You said in non-crimson flower routes she goes through an extreme Villainous Breakdown. Could you expand upon that? We're you misremembering, does she recover, etc.?

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#15308: Jan 29th 2020 at 5:56:26 PM

Anyone who else played want to weigh in... I'm not sure why but something seems off here. Maybe it's just how popular the game was and surprise at how she wasn't snatched up yet if she merited a talk.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#15309: Jan 29th 2020 at 6:21:18 PM

Going to abstain on that one.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#15310: Jan 29th 2020 at 6:51:37 PM

Look, I get it. I've gotten questionable characters approved, but for what it's worth Keyes, Kitaniji and Joshua were all unanimously approved and that was before my dubious reputation, with a few abstaining or not weighing in. I'm not asking for that, but I still think you got to give me a chance. And see, I think the problem was people were too eager to get the Monsters of Three Houses approved which is why she wasn't proposed sooner plus you have to beat all the paths to get the full story. Speaking of which, anyone think Keyes, Josh and Kitaniji are still keepers?

As for a Villainous Breakdown, it's more like she accepts her fate and is willing to be executed during said path. She tries to pull a fast one on Dimitri when he's the one killing her, but that's it. She's a pretty Graceful Loser.

Edited by Klavice on Jan 29th 2020 at 6:55:33 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#15311: Jan 29th 2020 at 7:06:43 PM

I can give a [tup] for Edelgard. I mean they don’t seem too severe. Plus those are non-canon which I don’t think we have to include those as long as their sense that are canon don’t take away from their Magnificence they can still qualify as such. I mean we have Raul Menendez from Call of Duty Black Ops 2 whose non-canon endings have him bashing his head against the TV when Chloe insults him before giving them a smirk and another one where he lights himself on fire in front of sister’s grave, but he still counted since the canon ending have him succeed in his goal without ever losing his magnificence.

Edited by G-Editor on Jan 29th 2020 at 5:24:22 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#15312: Jan 29th 2020 at 7:22:47 PM

I'd also like to point out that we've approved examples of villains who have lost before. Unanimously in fact. And it's kind of a "choose your own canon" thing depending on which house and path you take in the case of Edelgard, she succeeds on Crimson Flower but is thwarted on other paths.

Edited by Klavice on Jan 29th 2020 at 9:55:06 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#15313: Jan 29th 2020 at 7:25:07 PM

I'm going to give a weak [tup], my slight hesitance (not enough to say [tdown] though) coming from the nature of the game with it's multiple storylines. However I will say what you described is not an epic Villainous Breakdown at all. Unless of course you're saying that she has a stunned disbelief Villainous Breakdown as opposed to a temper tantrum Villainous Breakdown.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#15314: Jan 29th 2020 at 8:44:16 PM

Alright is I think I should do get hunk's write-up done before I forget.

  • Resident Evil series:
    • HUNK is a high-ranking commander of the Umbrella Security Service well-known for earning the monikers "Mr. Death" and "Grim Reaper" for always surviving and completing Umbrella's most dangerous missions. First appearing in 2 (and its Remake), HUNK leads Umbrella's Alpha Team to Raccoon City to retrieve the G-Virus from William Birkin. Despite loosing his team to the mutated Birkin, HUNK remains committed to completing his mission and successfully delivers the G-Virus to Umbrella after spending days surviving the zombie-infested city. He also delivers a special container from Antartica to Rockfort Island on Alfred Ashford's request, though he does question Ashford on what's in it. Although Umbrella soon collapsed in 2003, HUNK's legacy would remain where he becomes a legendary mercenary admired and feared by all.
    • Revelations: Raymond Vester and Jessica Sherawat are spies sent by TRICELL Inc. to retrieve a sample of the T-abyss virus. To divert everyone from discovering their true agendas, they would work on opposing sides; Raymond would collaborate with BSAA director Clive R. O'Brian to stage a fake kidnapping of Chris Redfield luring Jill Valentine and Parker Luciani onto the ship, Queen Zenobia, allowing them to learn the truth behind the destruction of Terragrigia, while Jessica would become The Mole for FBC commissioner Morgan Lansdale infiltrating the BSAA to destroy any evidence linking Lansdale's involvement in said destruction. Escaping the sinking ship, Jessica and Raymond would meet up where Raymond hands over the virus to Jessica before they go their separate ways.

Also I just got RE 4 for the Nintendo Switch so I'll get back to Ada Wong once I finish it. Still, if anyone here wants to EP Ada, they are absolutely free to do so.

Edited by G-Editor on Jan 29th 2020 at 8:42:05 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
crankers Since: Mar, 2014
#15315: Jan 29th 2020 at 11:10:45 PM

[up][up] I'll just save you guys some trouble. Here are the two death scenes. The Blue Lions Route one, and this one is used on both the Golden Eagles and Black Eagles if you don't side with her.

They're both only under two minute long each. And neither of them are a Villainous Breakdown.

Edited by crankers on Jan 29th 2020 at 11:11:13 AM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#15316: Jan 30th 2020 at 11:48:57 AM

On YMMV.Hamlet.

Why so serious?
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#15317: Jan 30th 2020 at 12:46:15 PM

Hamlet's a morally ambiguous hero. I think a case could be made for him. Doubtful as he is unambiguously the hero, but still.

Edited by Klavice on Jan 30th 2020 at 12:49:13 PM

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#15318: Jan 30th 2020 at 12:49:28 PM

Belated [tup] Uncle Aaron/Prowler. He was that movie's coolest bad guy, hands down. cool

Edited by ANewMan on Jan 30th 2020 at 12:49:35 PM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#15319: Jan 30th 2020 at 1:16:15 PM

On YMMV.Holes.

  • Magnificent Bastard: The Warden. Intimidating, unsettlingly nice, wears rattlesnake venom as nail polish and uses it to punish her employees, and opened Camp Green Lake to find Kissin' Kate Barlow's buried treasure. Sigourney Weaver was quite bemused when her daughter finished the book and immediately told her "You have to play this awful person!"

On YMMV.Inu Yasha.

  • Magnificent Bastard: Naraku, especially by the Band of Seven Arc, when he managed to get both Hakushin, a holy priest and the entire Band of Seven to serve him with a few good choices of words.

Edited by Clown-Face on Jan 30th 2020 at 1:21:12 AM

Why so serious?
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#15320: Jan 30th 2020 at 1:19:59 PM

No to both of them. Warden is a Smug Snake at least in the film while Narkau is uh too evil.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#15321: Jan 30th 2020 at 1:30:45 PM

On YMMV.John Devil.

  • Magnificent Bastard: Count Henri De Belcamp. He is a master of disguise with Napoleonic ambitions and incredible charisma who ingeniously uses his nemesis Temple's own methods against him, culminating in a brilliant Batman Gambit. Henri is able to gain the blind loyalty of people who have every reason to hate him and lies as easily as he tells the truth. He is sometimes considered the first Super Villain and with good reason.

Why so serious?
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#15322: Jan 30th 2020 at 1:32:58 PM

That one sounds interesting. Never heard of it but possibly the first supervillan in fiction. I'd love to see an ep.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#15324: Jan 30th 2020 at 3:01:34 PM

I'd never consider Hamlet a keeper. He's misogynistic and tends toward self-pity a bit too much for me.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#15325: Jan 30th 2020 at 3:33:54 PM

I don't remember much about the movie, but could Kissin' Kate Barlow count? Just wondering.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)

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