During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
to Serika
On YMMV.Outlaw Star.
- Magnificent Bastard: Ron was clearly the "brain" behind the MacDougal Brothers' operations, by knowing who to team up with and when it was to their advantage to switch allegiances. He also came the closest to capturing the XGP by arranging a meeting with Gene, to lure him away from the ship, so Harry could hijack it while it was being rearmed and repaired at the space port.
Quick announcement:
I have updated the date for the Special 7: Special Crime Investigation Unit discussion (which I previously mentioned reserving) so that discussion is happening in four weeks, to reflect the fact the final dub is being released in 2 weeks. Discussion will commence on February 9th. This should be the last update on my reservation of that series until the discussion date arrives.
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Wait. You mean I could do it today? The sub has been out for 2 weeks.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jan 13th 2020 at 5:10:21 AM
It has been 2 weeks and a day since the subbed season finale for Special 7 was released
So, as far as I'm concerned, I'm not really sure that there are any good candidates this season of Special 7: Special Crime Investigation Unit, Warlock, the primary antagonist, for sure, is not worthy of discussion due to his excessive cruelty, blatant prejudice, and loss of composure and dignity by the end of the series. Also, I'm not sure any particular member of Special 7 fits the criteria since all of them are charming in their own ways, but none of them particularly stand out from each other regarding the criteria of intelligence and deviousness, especially not Seiji Nanatsuki, who, being fairly intelligent, if slightly naïve, is still the closest thing there is in this series to a straightforward hero.
I could be missing something, but for now, I'm just gonna say that there are no keepers that I am aware of.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jan 13th 2020 at 6:11:57 AM
I have a question. Has Al Pacino ever played a Magnificent Bastard? I mean I know he's been some that have had some, the Godfather movies and Heat. But I would be surprised if one of the best actors alive hasn't.
Edited by Bullman on Jan 13th 2020 at 8:15:44 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread![]()
He often gets pretty manic in his films though is the problem with any of his dubious or potentially-so characters. Closest I suppose would be Michael Corleone, but while I'm not against the idea, he's too emotional and not as dignified as his father.
Need a break from the site as well. Hope to be back soon. I'll only be on the counseling thread for the time being.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jan 14th 2020 at 11:13:38 AM
Got an EP for the thread.
What’s the work?
Pokémon Adventures is a manga adaptation of the Pokemon games, and is one of, if not the most popular Pokemon manga. The manga is split into several arcs based off the games, usually with a different main protagonist each time.
The second arc of the manga, the Yellow arc, is about a young girl with mystical powers named Yellow who, alongside Red’s Pikachu, is trying to solve the disappearance of the previous main protagonist, Red. Along the way, she finds out about a group known as The Elite Four, a group of four powerful trainers with the goal of wiping out humanity (Well, really it’s only three of them who have that goal. One of them is simply looking for a challenging opponent, and is sometimes brainwashed). And the member I’m EPing for MB is their leader, Lance.
Who is he? What does he do?
One of many characters in the manga to undergo Adaptational Villainy, Lance is the Big Bad of the Yellow arc. Raised in the Viridian Forest, Lance has had powers to heal and to read the thoughts of Pokemon. Ever since childhood, Lance saw Pokemon suffer and die from humans polluting or destroying their habitats. Growing a hatred for humanity as a result of this, Lance decides to find a way to wipe out humans and make a utopia for Pokemon. Knowing how powerful of a trainer Red is, Lance has Lorelei write a letter to Red under Bruno’s name challenging him to a battle. If he was deemed skilled enough to be a threat, Lorelei and Agatha would abush Red during the battle and offer Red to either join them or be killed. Red refuses, resulting in Lorelei seemingly freezing Red to death. (Though Red thaws out, later revealed to be because of Giovanni)
Lance finds out about how the spirit of Lugia can be summoned on Cerise Island with the 8 gym badges, and plots to retrieve them. Already obtaining 7 from when Agatha scavenged the ruins of Team Rocket’s headquarters, Lance attempts to find Giovanni after Team Rocket spread a rumor that he’s in Vermillion City. Knowing the possibility that it could be an ambush (though because of Yellow from a previous chapter, Team Rocket never gets to pull it off), Lance sets up one of his own, taking control of the Dragonair offered as a prize for a citywide surfing competition. Lance then has the Dragonair destroy the city in an attempt to draw out Giovanni (but since he was never there, it results in nothing, though clever plan on Lance’s part to deal with an ambush)
After a brief battle with Yellow in Vermillion City, Lance escapes to Cerise Island and tells the Elite Four how it’s time to make their move. Alongside Agatha, he sends various Pokemon to rampage across various cities, Agatha using the badges while Lance uses his power over dragons, making Blaine and Blue think that several of the Elite Four are scattered across the region and Cerise is light on defenses (though Sabrina can tell with her psychic powers that all of the Elite Four are still on the island to Blaine’s shock) Lance then hides his Dragonite and Gyarados underground and has them cause a tremble that forces Blaine and Yellow to where Lance is, allowing him to get the drop on them.
With Mewtwo, Blaine fights against Lance’s Aerodactyl and two Dragonair, but Lance notices that Blaine can’t use Mewtwo in battle for long (due to him fusing his DNA with Mewtwo’s to control it, Blaine’s body gets more and more damaged as Mewtwo battles). Lance holds his own with his power and tactics (including using a psychic tornado Mewtwo and Blaine created against them by having his Dragonair attack from the inside), and in a last ditch gambit, Blaine destroys Lance’s remaining Pokeballs to prevent Lance from sending out anymore. However, as stated earlier, Lance already had his remaining Pokemon, Dragonite and Gyardos, hide underground, resulting in Blaine’s plan being for nothing.
Lance moves to the center of Cerise Island, Yellow following, and the two battle. When Yellow seemingly kills Lance with a clever usage of a makeshift surf and the lava from the volcano, Lance reveals that he created an incredibly powerful bubble that could withstand the lava. He then has his Gyarados and two Dragonair create several powerful colored bubbles that, due to the sun’s light, causes them to become practically invisible, bombarding Yellow and her team. Even when Yellow counters it, she doesn’t have the power to break through Lance’s defensive bubble, resulting in Lance nearly killing her until Giovanni comes and saves her.
Lance and Giovanni battle, with it ending in Giovanni destroying Lance’s main bubble, and having him stuck on the webs of Yellow’s Caterpie. However, despite losing to Giovanni in battle, Lance still turns this around. Since he moved the battlefield to the center of Cerise Island, the island reacts to Giovanni’s badge, and with it and the other 7 badges on the island, the spirit of Lugia is summoned, Lance intending to use it’s power to have it destroy civilization to make a world where Pokemon rule. Luckily, Yellow realizes that by showing the spirit a power greater than Lance’s, the spirit will turn it’s powers of destruction into life instead. By having her now evolved Butterfree send a stringshot for Red, Blue, and Green to send their Pokemon’s power into, Red’s Pikachu (commanded by Yellow) gains a huge boost in power to use a supercharged Thunderbolt, defeating Lance, and reversing the Spirit’s destructive power into healing the land instead.
In future arcs, Lance is pretty much a good guy due to Yellow showing how Pokemon and human bonds was possible, though he’s still really clever. In the GSC arc, Lance is the first to realize that the plan of Pryce (the Big Bad of that arc) is to capture Celebi in order to control time by having Silver do recon, lending Silver his Tyranitar to help. And in the Heartgold Soulsilver arc, while Lance does get ambushed by a disguised Petrel, he plays a key role in stopping the villain’s plans, gathering Giovanni and Pryce to fight against the summoned Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina. Lance uses his powers and tactics to hold his own against Palkia, making Palkia’s abilities to manipulate space to negate attacks useless due to Lance being able to have his Pokemon alter the course of their attacks. Lance is also the first to realize how Gold can appeal to the rampaging Arceus, by showing Arceus the bonds between Pokemon and humans through Gold’s Togepi, who felt neglected and underestimated by Gold. Gold realizing this from Lance, and evolving Togepi into Togetic and then Togekiss due to the Shiny Stone given to him by Lance being what stops Arceus’s rampage.
How do his actions show that he’s a Magnificent Bastard?
Lance constantly thinks one step ahead of his opponents, from preparing for their plans before the battle even begins, to turning his loss against Giovanni into a win. He fights for a noble cause, but despite his hatred for humanity, he’s still has his affable moments. He’s fine with letting them live until the Elite Four makes their move, letting the civilians of Vermillion City live (he states that barely any of them would be killed in the explosion he caused as they were gathered for the surfing competition) and in his first fight against Yellow, only trying to kill Yellow when she insisted on continuing to pursue him, along with genuinely praising Yellow during their second battle for her ingenuity.
Any mitigating factors?
He gets pretty annoyed with Yellow when she points out how his plan is hurting Pokemon as well, but it doesn’t go into full out Villainous Breakdown. The worst he gets is just yelling at her to shut up before calming down soon afterwards. And while he gets ambushed by Smug Snake Petrel after turning good, he had no idea about his disguising abilities, and in their second encounter, he captures him with ease when he tries to escape. And he’s far from the only Omnicidal Maniac who qualified for MB in the past. He hated humanity, but he had an understandable reason to, Yellow herself agreeing with him about how countless Pokemon have suffered because of humans.
Final Thoughts?
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Nov 23rd 2020 at 9:23:03 AM
From what I remember Lance is a Well-Intentioned Extremist and plays everyone like a fiddle so leaning yes there.
My only concern is does his hatred for humans technically count as racism enough that he's Politically Incorrect?
Edited by Klavice on Jan 14th 2020 at 4:03:46 AM
to Lance.
Deleted this unapproved entry from The Closer. This character sounds promising, so maybe Ravok or someone else who has seen the show can weigh in:
- Dr. Navarro in "Heart Attack." Disgusted with his Asshole Victims' actions and tired of so many good people dying in hospitals, he starts an Organ Theft racket that doubles as a vigilante group — all while managing to shift the blame toward drug-cartel activity. And when Brenda and co. finally come to arrest him — in the middle of performing a Vigilante Execution operation, no less — he casually shoots down all of their attempts to break into his chamber and invokes Shut Up, Kirk! against their Kirk Summation of his Knight Templar actions. And in the end, he surrenders with a sense of satisfaction, and the cops are forced to let the stolen organs be used exactly how he intended.
I found this under the Ensemble Dark Horse entry on The Venture Brothers.
- Dr. Killinger has only had three major appearances, but is incredibly memorable, probably because he's basically the Mary Poppins of Evil, seemingly a very helpful and friendly dude, and one hell of a Magnificent Bastard to boot.
Should this be cut? From what I remember from the show, Killinger doesn't do enough bad to really be considered the bastard part of this trope.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Jan 14th 2020 at 7:17:27 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Killinger definitely does do enough bad stuff. One of the explicit end goals in his second episode is making the protagonist realize he's a bad person and embrace his role as a Super Villain.
I have been thinking of EP him, I just haven't got around to rewatching his episodes.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 14th 2020 at 11:41:08 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midThat's probably the worst thing he's done. He just barely seems like a villain compared to others on the show. If anything, I'd say the Sovereign would be a much better candidate.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Jan 14th 2020 at 8:40:36 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.He also killed three union heads, reworked the guild of calamatious intent. He mainly helps supervillains. He's scummy enough.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 15th 2020 at 10:04:41 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
