During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I'm sure there's at least one fanfiction where he qualifies.
I have a question about Jafar from Disney Aladdin, aren't this whole segment should DQ him, considering his whole interaction with Jasmine (which include trying to force her to marry him, torturing her father for fun, hitting her, saying how he "will teach her some respect" and tries to brainwash her to fall in love with him) is very creepy and really obviously put to make him revolting?:
Not really. Jafar's more of a high-functioning Smug Snake in the original movie, graduating to MB status in the sequel.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jan 11th 2020 at 7:21:45 AM
Because it starts with his actions in the first film. I have no issue with changing the first sentence to something like "graduates to this from the Smug Snake he was in the first film" to clarify though.
How about this rewrite?:
Aladdin: Starting off as a petty high-functioning Smug Snake, Jafar manages to evolve into a flawless schemer by the events of the sequel. An Evil Sorceror who acts as royal vizier to the Sultan of Agrabah. His schemes to take over the throne for himself first involve retrieving the lamp with the Genie in it that can grant wishes, and then to convince the Sultan to let him marry Princess Jasmine so he can inherit it by marriage. While Aladdin derails both plans, Jafar realizes he has the lamp and steals it, using it to make himself the most powerful sorcerer in the world. Aladdin tricks Jafar into wishing to be a Genie, Jafar not realizing that his newfound power comes with imprisonment in a lamp of his own. However, as soon as the thief Abis Mal finds Jafar's lamp and releases him, he goes back to plotting to take over Agrabah and get revenge on Aladdin. He captures all of Aladdin's allies, frames him for the Sultan's murder, and pulls it off without Aladdin even realizing he's back. Along the way, Jafar tempers his arrogance and anger with enough cunning and charisma to back up his ego, and manages to be entertaining in his remorseless villainy thanks to a good heaping of Evil Is Hammy and style.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jan 11th 2020 at 10:32:43 PM
How about this?:
Aladdin: Starting off as a petty high-functioning Smug Snake, Jafar manages to evolve into a flawless schemer by the events of the sequel. An Evil Sorceror who acts as royal vizier to the Sultan of Agrabah, Jafar schemes to take over the throne from the Sultan by retrieving the lamp with the Genie in it that can grant wishes. When that seemingly failed, Jafar tried to convince the Sultan to let him marry Princess Jasmine so he can inherit it by marriage. Despite Aladdin, posing as Prince Ali, ruining this plan as well, Jafar deduce his real identity and steals the lamp from him, using it to make himself the most powerful sorcerer in the world. Although being tricked by Aladdin to become a Djinn and be trapped in the lamp, Jafar, after getting freed by the thief Abis Mal, goes back to plotting to take over Agrabah and get revenge on Aladdin. He captures all of Aladdin's allies, frames him for the Sultan's murder, and pulls it off without Aladdin even realizing he's back. Along the way, Jafar tempers his arrogance and anger with enough cunning and charisma to back up his ego, and manages to be entertaining in his remorseless villainy thanks to a good heaping of Evil Is Hammy and style.
- Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice: Usui Ukonzaemon, better known as The Great shinobi Owl, is a talented ninja who once stood alongside the Ashina Clan. Betraying the clan to hunt the Dragon Heritage manifest in Lord Kuro, Owl directs the Interior Ministry and bandits to assault the Hirata Estate while faking his death. Suspecting his partner, Lady Butterfly of treachery, Owl has his adoptive son Wolf deal with her while disappearing so he play all sides against one another. Returning to claim Kuro, Owl plans to seize all Japan with the dragon heritage and even upon his defeat, uses his final breath to express his pride in the ninja Wolf has become.
- Roald Dahl, Lamb to the Slaughter: Mary Maloney is a simple housewife who is informed by her husband that he intends to divorce her. Murdering him with a frozen leg of lamb, Mary proceeds to put it in the oven and contrives a scheme to get away with murder. Going aorund town to act like everything is fine and discussing dinner plans with Patrick, Mary calls the police and plays the bereaved housewife perfectly. to eliminate the evidence, she serves the detectives the leg of lamb so they literally eat the evidence, all while hunting for the murder weapon.
Alright.
What is the work? Serenity serves as The Movie for Cult Classic television series Firefly. A space western in which a group of plucky space criminals take on an evil empire known as The Alliance (It's way more complex than that), Serenity is more focused on a standard science fiction story, with the stakes hugely raised and the victories and losses greater than ever before. Facing the heroes of this story is Chiwetel Ejiofor's smooth, badass character, known only as The Operative. The Operative also appears in Serenity: Leaves on the Wind, a six-part comic series.
Who is The Operative? What does he do? The Operative is a top agent of The Alliance, who believes heavily in the idea that the peace The Alliance brings justifies their horrible crimes. He is sent to track down River Tam, a very powerful girl who has been amplified due to an Alliance experiment. He begins by killing the scientist that worked on her for his failures in an honorable manner. (He needed killing.)
The Operative very consistently tracks the crew of the Serenity off very little information. He uses subliminial messaging to trigger River's killing urges, uses Inara to lure Mal in, and when Mal outwits him and shoots him, he turns the situation to his advantage quickly, although he is eventually defeated by a flash bomb.
The Operative then calls simultaneous attacks on every port that has ever had Serenity, threatening Mal with more violence. Although Mal manages to sneak past Reaver (Ultraviolent nightmare space rapist zombie) lines, The Operative predicts that he will try to reveal the Alliance secrets he is trying to hide due to the inevitable result being its fall, and tracks down Mr. Universe, their ally and a hacker, using him to lure the crew into a trap before summoning an entire fleet like a practical man.
What The Operative doesn't predict is the Serenity luring an entire fleet of Reaver ships to his position. While he breaks down briefly, The Operative regains his cool, finally fighting Mal. Due to an old war wound, he is unable to use a typical move, and Mal defeats him, showing him that The Alliance created The Reavers, finally breaking The Operative's faith in The Alliance. The Operative orders his forces to stand down, arranges repairs for the Serenity, and confesses he cannot drive himself to leave The Alliance. Mal assures him he will kill him if they meet again, and The Operative assures him they will not.
Then they do. In Serenity: Leaves on the Wind, the comic continuation, The Operative is revealed to have exiled himself. Mal asks for his help, and joins them in saving the other girls in a program similar to River's, before being dropped off after they are done. Zoe, the beloved and lover of Wash, the pilot of the Serenity who died in the film, accosts him, blaming him for Wash's death. She states that she will kill him, and he agrees that she would be right to do so, before stating he will defend himself if she tries. Next we see Zoe, she is alone, implying she singlehandedly killed him.
Is he intelligent? Extraordinarily so. The Operative plans ahead for most things the crew does, including legitimately coming unarmed to the negotiation with Mal, yet in full body armor due to his knowledge that Mal will likely shoot him outright. The Operative is a skilled assassin (Despite his hatred of the word) who handles himself with a verbose brilliance, as well as being a Reasonable Authority Figure among The Alliance and a Warrior Poet.
Is he a bastard? Too much? The Operative is pretty blatantly a heinous individual. He kills people just for seeing The Alliance's secrets, including some who pose no threat to him, which include the crew's friend Shepherd Book and a child. That said, he makes it very clear he himself is deeply conflicted and horrified by his actions, only convincing himself to go through with them due to his belief that they will create a peaceful future. (He's practically broken down crying after some of his worst deeds.)
The Operative is genuinely Affably Evil despite his crimes. He wants to help people, but he feels that he is a Necessary Evil. He has a sense of honor, calls off his attacks on the crew after he knows the conflict is over, and makes it clear that he sees himself as a monster, desiring that when his utopia is achieved, he is punished like everyone else. While he's a monster, he's far from heartless and just wants what he perceives as a utopian future.
Can he think on his feet? The Operative deals with every issue with his plan well. He tracks River down quickly, and when negotiations fail and his initial threat fails, he tricks Mal. After failing, he threatens violence against the crew, before tricking them into a trap, and, again, summoning an entire fleet, proving he does not underestimate the Serenity. He then singlehandedly follows them down in an escape pod, only truly losing when his unique paralysis tactic doesn't work due to something he couldn't have possibly predicted. Once firmly defeated, he calls his troops off, and is open to an Enemy Mine in the following comic series. Even his smaller Villainous Breakdown against the Reavers is justified, seeing as he's facing a fleet of Reavers. He regains his cool as well.
Is he charming?
Played by Chiwetel Ejiofor, extremely classy, badass, witty, and practical. Yep, The Operative is charming. He is ridiculously charismatic and well-spoken. From his very first scene
to his very last, The Operative is charming.
Is he a keeper? I'm inclined to think so. While he's pretty ruthlessly evil and does end up broken by the end of the film, he's smart, charismatic, clever, and genuinely believes in his cause.
Yes to Operative. And one thing to note is while I did vote to cut Phoenix Wright from Apollo Justice in that game he's such a radically different character and kind of a troll/asshole at times, but lacking the Smug entitled qualities of Kristoph, that I wonder if he's more suited to be this than Guile Hero.
I mean if you guys think he has a shot I could do an effortpost on him. Basically Phoenix is a very dark anti hero with little to no comedic elements from previous game unless it's messing with Apollo. He's also considerably more competent in the game than previous games and Kristoph would have gotten away without his meddling. Besides, we counted L who's probably just as bad.
