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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#14976: Jan 8th 2020 at 11:15:33 AM

I feel Demons Souls loses a bit without the online component, sadly....but yes, agreed.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#14978: Jan 8th 2020 at 12:03:16 PM

[tup] to Owl and Mary.

Also we just made page 600[awesome] and in the new year! Yepee for us! If we can more activity we'll get to page 1000 in no time!

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#14979: Jan 8th 2020 at 1:36:09 PM

Yeah, I forgot to mention that: The online stuff with Demon's Souls got shut down. Unless you get access to fan servers like some guys did with Metal Gear Online 2, you're missing out on all the innovations it brought with its unique online experience. But still, it's rather strong even if I think it's rather easy to cheese with a little effort.

I reserved The Gentlemen by the way. Discussion should be on 7th February.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#14980: Jan 8th 2020 at 1:53:55 PM

I have reserved the Special 7: Special Crime Investigation Unit discussion, which commences on the 26th if this month.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#14981: Jan 8th 2020 at 2:14:22 PM

Did we discuss Rise of Skywalker on this thread, I ask since it's still on the dates page.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14982: Jan 8th 2020 at 2:16:05 PM

Pretty sure no one counts. Every villain in the sequel trilogy is a shade of idiot or pathetic

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#14983: Jan 8th 2020 at 2:19:45 PM

I agree, I mostly just wanted to check before taking it off the dates page.

BTW It isn't on the dates page but its been two weeks so I can say that no one counts in uncut gems, the main character is an annoying idiot and everybody else is either a dick or doesn't do much.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#14984: Jan 8th 2020 at 3:06:09 PM

TBF there was one case I was thinking of from the Sequels But it'll be a tough argument...PM me if you want to know who

Also Scraggle discussed Rise of Skywalker earlier

Edited by Kylotrope on Jan 8th 2020 at 3:06:41 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#14986: Jan 8th 2020 at 6:39:20 PM

Agree with Mir, the sequel trilogy is too much of an Idiot Plot for literally anyone to qualify.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#14987: Jan 8th 2020 at 7:11:33 PM

Yes to Owl, June and Mary.

Also if it's who I'm thinking of, even they were played by ol' Sheev who obviously doesn't count.

Basically if it's anyone in the First Order Hux and Phasma included, they don't count.

I'm curious to see the discussion on Axel whenever Scraggle or Polar gets to him. I'd say like Sephiroth, he passes easy.

Has anyone proposed anyone from Dragon Quest yet? I could see someone counting in one of the games, maybe Angelo if he's not too much of a heroic figure (from my understanding he was an Anti Hero though I remember him being quite clever.) I don't know if he's played though, I think his brother played him. I've been wanting to get into Dragon Quest for a while so if I start playing the series expect me to reserve candidates.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#14988: Jan 8th 2020 at 9:15:30 PM

[up][up]Thanks TROS.

Could have had a truly legendary saga but they cowarded out at the last hurdle.

At least I take comfort that 10, 20, 30 years from now, The Last Jedi will continue to delight and inspire with its messages of feminism, compassion and how anybody can be a hero. A truly shining example of the Heroine's Journey on the big screen, the only sad thing being it could not be finished. But I will enjoy showing it to my nephews, my niece and any kids I have - even as I dread them watching TROS.

I can link some good articles/videos on TLJ if you PM me. Won't do that here, though. EDIT: [down] Yeah, sorry. I wanted to pump some positivity into the proceedings since TROS is a sore subject, but that's a fine line to walk.

@Klavice: Scraggle already got Axel up. As for DQ villains, some may qualify, but someone will have to get around to that. DQ 9, for example, may have someone.

As for a Sequel Trilogy MB? As much as I am currently done with Star Wars, I can imagine the ONE he speaks of counting if the expanded materials tell us more of what he was doing Post TLJ and Pre TROS.

Edited by PolarPhantom on Jan 8th 2020 at 5:27:05 PM

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#14989: Jan 8th 2020 at 9:21:42 PM

I’m agreed on those points about TLJ and TROS, Polar. Unsure of how much of that needed to be said here, but I’m agreed.

Have we discussed the Operative from Serenity here? While he’s solidly thrashed and ends the film broken, I would think he might stand a chance.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#14990: Jan 8th 2020 at 9:43:19 PM

I was thinking of him myself.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14991: Jan 8th 2020 at 9:48:07 PM

Btw guys. Today I'm heading off on vacation for around four-five days. So I won't be active on the thread during that period. Bye for now. Good luck to you guys in the meantime.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#14992: Jan 8th 2020 at 9:56:25 PM

Go for it. The Operative might have a fair chance.

Also, yet another unapproved one, this one from YMMV.Father Brown:

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#14993: Jan 9th 2020 at 1:39:02 AM

Found this on YMMV.Doctor Steel:

  • Magnificent Bastard: Is this real? Is he genuinely evil? Or is he just stringing us all along? Who knows? Who cares? Dr. Steel has loyal followers proclaiming devotion all along the globe, all simply because of catchy music. Magnificent, indeed.
    • I defy you to find another despot who can get away with actually labelling his propaganda as "Propaganda".

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#14994: Jan 9th 2020 at 3:51:19 AM

Still got stuff going on but damn, glad to see us hit 6! Lit!

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#14995: Jan 9th 2020 at 6:12:44 AM

People, I've found and cut this unapproved entry in Sonic the Comic:

Errr.... Robotnik’s insanity and final actions in Sonic The Comic, namely bring together Sonic, his friends, Chaos and the Chaos Emeralds so that everyone dies, himself included, just out of spite is probably too much... That being said, if anyone thinks he counts, try to EP him by all means.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#14996: Jan 9th 2020 at 1:31:56 PM

[tup] to Akane Kurashiki, the Owl and Mary Maloney.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#14997: Jan 9th 2020 at 6:43:16 PM

I'll figure out pending tomorrow or Saturday.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#14998: Jan 10th 2020 at 6:22:31 AM

@Georgie There does seem to be a few versions of him on here already, but yeah, that entry is indeed improper.

Again, very difficult for anyone other than Jango to count in the movies. If Kylotrope means who I think he means though, maybe. Also, I actually was pretty onboard with how TROS turned out, but I completely understand that not everyone is gonna feel that way though.

EDIT: I was thinking of someone else. Who Kylotrope actually refers to could have an interesting case made, but would be a tough sell.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jan 10th 2020 at 11:15:40 AM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#14999: Jan 10th 2020 at 8:15:54 AM

On YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 5 E 25 The Cutie Remark Part 1

  • Magnificent Bitch: Starlight has a real shining moment of it when she prevents the Sonic Rainboom by giving the bullies a good talking-to that genuinely reforms them, meaning Twilight would have to talk them back into being bullies, which she's naturally quite ill-equipped to do.

Yeah....no.

Why so serious?
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#15000: Jan 10th 2020 at 8:29:24 AM

Yeah after the whole "Discord helping the bad guys" for no conceivable reason I'd say no one from FiM qualifies beyond EG villain Adagio and potentially a comic villain or two. The show is way too black and white with the white being slightly tinted with gray and Protagonist-Centered Morality. A shame too, because Discord would have been a great example had that twist not been so bad. But regardless he was played by Tirek in TK.

Edited by Klavice on Jan 10th 2020 at 8:31:47 AM


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