During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Unapproved entry, this one from YMMV.Dune.
- Magnificent Bastard: The novels have an incredibly high Magnificent Bastard to character ratio. Leto II, Bijaz (although he was programmed specifically for it), Malky (only by implication, however), the thinking machines.
Leto II looks like a genuine keeper. Someone please EP him.
Also, from YMMV.World War Z:
- Magnificent Bastard: Fidel Castro, even more so than in real life. When it was clear his country was turning against him, he gave up his position and endorsed the new institution, essentially becoming the father of the new government, and a national hero.
...yeah, calling Castro this is just asking for an Edit War.
Edited by MasterN on Jan 7th 2020 at 6:50:00 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.![]()
I may be willing to hear out an effortpost for a fictional Castro (as opposed to a fictional version of Hitler or Stalin), so long as he is not as controversial as he was in real life.
Maybe because he was nowhere near as heinous as Stalin or Hitler, and wasn't notably bigoted or racist to my knowledge. Like I said, I may be willing to hear out a fictional Castro. I imagine I'd have a hard time saying yes, though.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jan 7th 2020 at 11:33:25 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Really? Am genuinely shocked. Well, I suppose Lighty or someone else can reserve discussion. I myself have no plans to EP WWZ!Castro.
By the way, any more votes on Delta Klim
?
Edited by MasterN on Jan 7th 2020 at 7:57:21 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
for Akane Kurashiki.
Ehhhhh, leaning
for Delta Klim.
Anyone else wanna weigh in on Margot Al-Harazi
?
I have one possibility, too...
What's the work?
Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice is the latest title given to us by From Software and the mind of gaming's most notorious sadist Hidetaka Miyazaki...set in Shogunate-era Japan (implicitly), the hero takes the role of Wolf, a shinobi taken on the battlefield by the Great Shinobi Owl and fostered in the Iron Code of the Shinobi...given a master in young Lord Kuro, Wolf later enters into a political conflict. Kuro is afflicted with the Dragon Heritage, a curse of sorts where he cannot die, bleed or suffer harm. Kuro passes on some of this unique power to Wolf, granting him immortality at the steep cost of others having their life essences leeches to continue it....when young Kuro is taken by the Ashina clan for his abilities, as Ashina faces annihilation at the hands of the ruling Interior Ministry, Wolf must recover his master, kill everything in his path and die. A lot.
Let's talk...Wolf's da, the Great Owl.
Who is Owl?
True name Usui Ukonzaemon, Owl is a giant of a man and an elderly shinobi who once trained with the equally elderly Phantom Butterfly. Decades ago, Owl was a friend of the Ashina clan leader, Isshin, known as the Sword Saint...when they reclaimed the Ashina land, Owl fought for them and found Wolf on the battlefield, a 'starving cub' he adopted and trained. The Iron Code states a parent's will is absolute...a master is a close second.
Wolf was given to Kuro to protect and obey, but Owl...had begun to feel some ambition and sought to use the Dragon Heritage for his own designs and purposes. Deciding on playing everyone against one another, he waited until Kuro was visiting a family member, his uncle, at the Hirata Clan, a sort of cadet branch of the Ashina clan...he proceeded to betray them to the Interior Ministry, disguising the attack as 'bandits' to have them burn and sack the estate, killing most everyone there....while also having Butterfly lead the attack from within. However, not trusting Butterfly, Owl had plans to dispose of her as well.
Owl proceeded to feign injury when Wolf found him, preventing him from 'treating' Owl and telling him to protect Kuro, seemingly 'dying'...but also sending Wolf to rescue the boy with the convenient effect of eliminating Butterfly before she could take the power of the Dragon Heritage first. At the opportune moment, Owl proceeded to backstab a victorious Wolf and left him for dead. Only Kuro's power saved him, where he would later return to the battlefield three years later.
Thought dead, Owl retreated to the shadows, manipulating the Ashina and Interior Ministry in conflict while relying on the immortal Wolf to prune the ranks of the former and allow for an easier time for the Ministry...just FYI, Isshin is like 90 and sick and they're still wary of just invading because of this guy, never mind some of the Ashina's other king-tier badasses....Owl later makes his move, attempting to seize Kuro when Wolf arrives. Owl orders him to obey the Iron Code and submit to his father, whereupon one of two things may happen: if Wolf obeys, he will have to kill his allies, including Isshin...Owl leaves to assassinate Genichiro, the Ashina clan leader, but before he can enact his plans, Wolf stabs him in the back as he submits to his hatred and becoes a literal demon of pure hate, known as a Shura.
If Wolf refuses, Owl seems to break down crying...to mask the sound of his blade drawn as he strikes at Wolf. In a shinobi vs. shinobi fight, Owl takes on Wolf, only to fall at the hands of his son, his dying words being a chuckling "That's my boy..."
How's he operate?
Owl is a master at playing people. From the Hirata Estate, he manipulates the Interior Ministry and everyone else, the Ashina, Wolf, Kuro and Butterfly to weaken all of them, and successfully takes out the hirata, Butterfly and Wolf while slipping into the shadows and guiding the conflict so he can seize Kuro. It's pretty impressive.
Now, in the endings...okay, when Wolf obeys him, it doesn't go as planned, but Owl couldn't have really foreseen Wolf would become a rampaging demonic monster of pure hatred. In the other one...Well, Owl is one of the toughest fights in the game, a crafty and strategic warrior who uses anti-healing items, firecrackers, smoke bombs and unpredictable patterns there. And when you shave off one health bar, he seemingly begs for mercy...only to use it as cover for an attack.
Any mitigating features?
Owl is something of a ruthless, murderous bastard whose only loyalty is to himself. However, despite feigning cowardice, he's no coward. He's a shinobi who'll use any trick to win. He only 'begs' to use it as a cover, and when actually defeated, he's a Graceful Loser...fight him in a memory at the Hirata Estate and his dying words? "Defeated by my own son? The feeling...is not entirely unpleasant..."
But overall, Owl does a lot of evil solely to make himself into a god with the Dragon Heritage and conquer Japan.
Conclusion?
I'd give Owl a yes.
One I've also been considering...
What's the work?
Lamb to the Slaughter is a short story by Roald Dahl concerning a pregnant housewife named Mary who thinks she has a happy marriage, only to be proven wrong and reacts...mmm....violently. Pregnant, Mary contrives of a scheme to escape the law...
Who is Mary?
Mary Maloney. A sweet young housewife married to Patrick, a police detective. Patrick comes home acting odd and it is insinuated he tells Mary he wishes for a divorce. Mary, in a trancelike state, in pure shock, retrieves a frozen leg of lamb she planned to make for dinner and in a moment of rage, smacks it into Patrick's skull, killing him on the spot....realizing he's dead, Mary calms herself and begins contriving of a way to get out of the crime...she promptly puts the leg of lamb in the oven to erase some of the evidence, heading out on errands to make sure she's seen, and chats with the grocer about what she'll make Patrick for dinner...arriving back home, she calls the police, presenting herself as a grieving housewife...and soon wins the cops as being above suspicion herself.
The police conclude Patrick was killed by a blunt instrument and search the house...Mary then comes up with another idea...hey, they've been working through dinner and she has a nice leg of lamb in the oven, aren't they hungry? She proceeds to literally serve them the murder weapon and listens in as they comment on finding the murder weapon. One of them mentions the weapon is likely "right under our noses".
Mary? Just begins to chuckle softly to herself as the story ends.
How's she operate?
For a young housewife with no experience? She...perfectly murders her husband and gets away with it, through some quick and clever thinking. After murdering him in a moment of anger and passion, she thinks it through, presents so nobody will suspect anything and manages to completely fool everyone, including the cops....
....and then she serves the murder weapon for dinner to completely erase the evidence. If that ain't a spot of magnificence, I don't know what is.
Any mitigating factors?
I mean, she's light on the nastiness front, but murdering her husband because he asked for a divorce and then coldly thinking of a way out is pretty bastard-y. Mary is, however, not too bad, and part of her concern is her unborn child. But besides that? Nah.
Conclusion?
Not the most conventional example, but there we go.
Yes to Owl, June, Margot, Delta and Mary.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
for Usui "Owl" Ukonzaemon and Mary Maloney.
Tempted to get Sekiro at some point, and/or the Dark Souls and Demon Souls games. My sanity isn't important.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.

Maybe check out a specific publication where his stories are collected.