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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#14876: Jan 3rd 2020 at 4:21:59 PM

If anyone's perversely curious about Star Wars, BTW, nobody counts. Palpatine doesn't so much take the Villain Ball as choke to death on it this time.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14877: Jan 3rd 2020 at 4:23:19 PM

Doesn't his plan keep changing throughout the entire thing from what I've heard ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#14878: Jan 3rd 2020 at 4:23:34 PM

Yup... the I'll corrupt Luke, okay, fucked that up... how about Kylo, didn't work either? Okay... Rey maybe... dammit, why won't anyone listen to me, I'm persuasive kills any chance in this one.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#14879: Jan 3rd 2020 at 4:35:15 PM

Snoke's plan was more reasonable and his gambit ended with him sliced in two - well, 4 actually.

...wait, was Palps Snoke or was Snoke was just working for him? I think EU materials implies the former.

But let's give Papa (I can't believe this dumb nickname is canon) Palps credit: He is very mouldy in this one. His brain isn't so good thinking.

Palps: Kylo, kill your cute Jedi gf tm also, she's my granddaughter, I thought this might help you to know for some reason.

Palps: Actually Rey, I want you to kill me so I can take your body. Man, I'm even creepier now. Maybe I should dial it back, I've already got a pretty big Memetic Molester rep.

Palps: Actually, I think I'll use your bond to restore myself. Good thing I accidentally... did that I guess? Now I will throw the boy into a very convenient but not lethal pit and force the girl to watch me zap her friends rather than kill her because...

Palps: I miss Revenge of the Sith.

Edited by PolarPhantom on Jan 3rd 2020 at 12:35:49 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14880: Jan 3rd 2020 at 4:38:25 PM

Maybe he's just throwing darts on his giant dartboard plan and hoping something sticks. [lol]

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14882: Jan 3rd 2020 at 4:51:23 PM

You act like Disney won't bring him back when they run out of ideas again[lol]

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#14883: Jan 3rd 2020 at 4:51:56 PM

Plus he still to sadistic if you take the character as a whole.

Polar: Yeah clearly dying messed up his brain if he thought Kylo would choose him over Rey or that Rey would do what he wants.

Not to mention the fact that he changes plans like what four times this movie.

Edited by Bullman on Jan 3rd 2020 at 6:57:04 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#14884: Jan 3rd 2020 at 4:59:24 PM

Maybe Palps could have been like "bring her to me and I can turn her. Then, she will be yours! You will rule together as my heirs!"

That way he plays on Kylo's actual motives and is working towards his true goal of Grand Theft Me. But, I should try and avoif playing script doctor too much.

I honestly appreciate how done Kylo is with evil sorcerous overlords.

"Rey, let's just kill the bastard and rule together, cause I'm just tired of all this."

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#14885: Jan 3rd 2020 at 6:03:49 PM

Palpatine is too depraved for this trope anyways and gets worse on this level with TROS.

Assuming that the Hearts of Durasteel mod ever comes out for Hearts of Iron IV, we could see a hypothetical XANA-esque situation where a character that's too sadistic for the main canon counts in a fan work through.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#14886: Jan 3rd 2020 at 7:33:33 PM

[up]Yeah, maybe even a Fix Fic for the whole sequel trilogy that fixes the myriad of problems and poor writing... though even then, I feel that Sheev may be too depraved to qualify, seeing as he is basically the figurative incarnation of evil within Star Wars, and the fic would have to significantly tone him down. And then he just would not be Palpatine anymore.

That being said, overdue [tup] to Sephiroth. Makes him a nice contrast to famous CM Kefka.

Edited by MasterN on Jan 3rd 2020 at 7:43:21 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#14887: Jan 3rd 2020 at 8:18:03 PM

I suppose I'll say 'Yes' to Sephiroth. Excellent job on the effortpost, Polar!

Yeah, main continuity Palps does not and never will count for this trope, any chance he had was destroyed with this movie, that makes him a generic "mwahaha my evil army" overlord instead of the political mastermind of the original films.

For now? Let's discuss a Star Wars baddie that does count.

What's the work?

Star Wars: The Old Republic is an excellent MMORPG created by Bioware some years ago that is still going strong (and offering better content than the sequel trilogy) years later. The game features 8 unique storylines, 4 for Republic, 4 for Empire, and though the game is possessed of many CMs, no MB baddies have been listed.

Yet.

Meet Watcher One.

Who is Watcher One? What makes him a candidate?

Watcher One is an Imperial Intelligence Operative who has successfully served the Empire for decades, having stayed alive even while working with Sith for all these years by not sticking his nose into Sith business beyond what is necessary, as he is fully aware of their bloodthirsty natures.

Dispatched by the Sith lord Darth Angral to the planet Taris to hunt down former republic scientist Dr. Godera and extract information from him, Watcher One raids each of Godera's hidden labs while seeking him out.

When the Jedi Knight arrives on Taris and takes down one of Watcher One's squadrons, Watcher One contacts the Jedi Knight through a hologram and informs them that more bloodshed is unnecessary, as he is near to capturing Godera. Watcher One throws the Jedi Knight off-balance by revealing he knows secretive information about the Knight, then reveals he had been using their entire conversation to distract the Jedi Knight while reinforcements snuck in and surrounded the Knight, who Watcher One orders to terminate the Knight.

As the Jedi Knight survives and tracks Godera's last potential hideout, the Knight stumbles across a wounded personnel member named Vulaa carrying out an unconscious friend, and the Knight tells them to get to safety while Vulaa points the Knight in the direction of Godera.

The Knight comes across a dead Godera and Watcher One proclaiming 'ah well, we both lost, too bad!' .....until one of Godera's droids arrives and informs the Knight that this is one of Watcher One's deceptions. Turns out? Watcher One disguised himself as Vulaa, knocked out Godera, and hauled him off right under the Knight's nose (Godera was the "unconscious friend"), and used holographic technology to disguise a dead body as Godera, with the "Watcher One" who tried to throw the Knight off the scent actually a disguised commando who tries to kill the Knight on Watcher One's orders.

With Godera now in possession and realizing the Knight won't stop, Watcher One offers a bargain: in exchange for allowing Watcher One time to administer a harmless truth serum to Godera and get the sought-after info for Angral, Watcher One will give the Jedi Knight the location of a powerful Sith Lord on Taris planning to massacre innocent Tarisians. Should the Knight refuse to barter, Watcher One gives him the location anyway, knowing that no Jedi would allow Innocents to be slaughtered, and even revealing that the Sith Lord is in possession of powerful artifacts to sweeten the deal if the Jedi is of the more selfish variety.

By the time the Jedi Knight finds their way to Watcher One, the Imperial agent has completed the interrogation of Godera, and sends the info to Angral. Though Watcher One tries to honor his deal and hand over Godera to the Jedi Knight, when an enraged Angral realizes Watcher One tried to play nice with a Jedi, he orders Watcher One kill the Jedi Knight or suffer, and Watcher One, hesitantly, duels the Jedi Knight, only to be beaten.

Proclaiming that himself and the Jedi Knight aren't so different and that it's a "comfort," Watcher One prepares for his fate.

If the Jedi Knight tries to arrest Watcher One, Watcher One calmly states that he refuses to be imprisoned and interrogated, and uses a posionous injection to kill himself.

If the Jedi Knight kills Watcher One, prefacing his murder with "You'll receive no mercy from me," Watcher One stands up straight and remarks "I didn't ask for any. Do what you must." before taking the killing blow without flinching.

Finally, if the Jedi Knight lets Watcher One go,Watcher One, though surprised at this gesture, nonetheless takes advantage of it and flees, disappearing from both Republic and Empire radars since the Sith would want his death on Angral's command.

Later in the game, Watcher One will send you a letter of gratitude for sparing his life, remarking that he's since found himself a flourishing career in corporate espionage that he finds just as thrilling as his former Imperial position.

Is Watcher One magnificent in how he operates?

Oooooh yeah. Watcher One is Affably Evil, a Noble Demon, willing to make deals with the Jedi Knight, avoids unnecessary bloodshed, and all while outwitting the Jedi Knight with several smart, quick-thinking schemes before ultimately succeeding in his plan. The only hitch is that Angral flips his lid and does exactly what Watcher One has tried to avoid all these years—made it about Sith cruelty and bloodthirsty rather than the logic of the mission—and even then he either faces death with steely dignity, or runs off and makes just as good a life for himself in the corporate world.

Watcher One is made to be a respectable opponent, and one who considers the Jedi Knight a Worthy Opponent as well. And considering he's only the Arc Villain for one planet, he stands out all the more in how respectful and respectable he is.

Is Watcher One a bastard?

By standards of Imperials? No, Watcher One isn't a notable bastard at all. Watcher One is blip on the heinous standard, with his only truly immoral crimes seen being working with the Empire, kidnapping and interrogating Godera, and trying repeatedly to kill the Jedi Knight and anyone else who would defend Godera.

Even still, it's enough for him to be a bad guy by all means of the term, and he is the ultimate Arc Villain for Taris so he's got enough.

Final Verdict?

Keeper for a better villain than the entire Sequel Trilogy offered us.

Edited by Ravok on Jan 3rd 2020 at 8:18:55 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#14888: Jan 3rd 2020 at 8:26:37 PM

[tup]Easy yes for Watcher One.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#14890: Jan 3rd 2020 at 8:36:37 PM

Watcher sounds like a keeper.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#14892: Jan 3rd 2020 at 9:22:11 PM

[tup] to Watcher, and [lol] about Sheev. He could only count as a Magnificent Bastard if it was revealed he hijacked the script of TROS and then rewrote it so that it would become the Palpatine Saga instead of the Skywalker Saga (which is why Rey is now his granddaughter).

If you wouldn't mind, since the Catwoman entry is being put on the draft, I would make a few modifications to Hugo Strange's entry (noticed some grammar typos):

  • Out of all the villains in Batman's Rogues Gallery, Professor Hugo Strange is perhaps the most dangerous of them all. Fascinated by the Batman's crusade against crime, Hugo Strange studies on the minds of criminals apprehended by Batman as a means to understand the Dark Knight himself. Using his criminal studies as his foundation, Strange launches various schemes to psychologically destroy Batman such as creating the hyper-intelligent criminal AI known as D.A.V.E., manipulating Batman to spread a fear toxin across Gotham, and capturing members of the Justice League for the Joining. He has come close to victory many times if not for the last-minute gambits on Batman's part; and he takes his losses in stride, biding his time for the next opportunity to come arrive. Strange respects Batman's intelligence, citing him to be the most dangerous member of the Justice League, while the Batman begrudgingly respects Strange as a brilliant psychiatrist who can mess with people's heads. Armed with nothing more than his brilliant intellect and morbid curiosity in a world of combat-prone villains, Hugo Strange certainly earns the title of "Gotham's Ultimate Criminal Mastermind."

[down]Is that better?

Edited by Shadao on Jan 5th 2020 at 5:47:36 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#14893: Jan 3rd 2020 at 9:40:55 PM

[up]Yes it is. Also here's jimmy's write up.

  • Logan Lucky: Jimmy Logan is a blue collar worker who, after being fired from his job at Charlotte Motor Speedway, concocts a plan to rob the speedway along with his siblings Clyde and Mellie. To this end he recruits incarcerated Demolitions Expert Joe Bang and his siblings Sam and Fish. Jimmy has Clyde get himself arrested and has Joe organize a riot that they use to cover their escape and eventual return to the prison. After stealing all of the money and escaping, Jimmy anonymously returns the cash Sam and Fish snuck out, causing the investigation to get called off early. He then reveals that Mellie had snuck out extra cash that he gives to everyone involved, as well as a local mobile clinic and a woman whose car he had damaged as part of the heist.

Edited by papyru30 on Jan 4th 2020 at 3:48:04 AM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#14894: Jan 3rd 2020 at 10:40:36 PM

[tup]Watcher One.

Why so serious?
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14896: Jan 4th 2020 at 1:11:51 AM

[tup]One

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#14897: Jan 4th 2020 at 1:56:50 AM

[tup]One.

I can't believe the Skywalker Saga ends with all Skywalkers dead and a Palpatine taking their name.

...heck it, there's only 8 films and one weird, expensive Lukeleia fanfic.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#14898: Jan 4th 2020 at 2:06:29 AM

I like too think Palps was just pulling a I Meant to Do That whenever one plan failed

Edited by Kylotrope on Jan 4th 2020 at 2:07:33 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#14899: Jan 4th 2020 at 2:09:45 AM

[up] "Good, Rey, Good, now the Palpatine line will be the heroes of the Galaxy!"

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP

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