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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#14527: Dec 16th 2019 at 8:51:50 AM

Found and cut this unapproved entry in YMMV.Merlin 2008:

  • Magnificent Bastard: A rare (sort of) heroic example. Merlin, after his Character Development, turns into one. He retains his charming personality, but is obsessed with protecting Arthur instead of being the All-Loving Hero he was, uses manipulation and lies more often, even with his closest friends, and has become much more pragmatic, not bothered at all by the number of people he's killed (which was definitely in the four-digits by end of the series' finale, and arguably prior to it).

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#14529: Dec 16th 2019 at 2:07:11 PM

[tup] to Captain James Biggs and Tempus "Clock King" Fugate.

[up][up] Yeah Merlin doesn't count, he can be pretty cunning but not only does the majority of his gambits not work and he often completely misses obvious flaws until they explode in his face (most of his successes are the "by the skin of your teeth sort" and more often have to do determination and sheer raw power than ingenuity) he's no where near a bastard enough. Everyone he kill is either trying to kill him or other people, the majority of that bodycount it mentions? An army of invading barbarians who want to rape and pillage (and who it looks like he just blasts with lightning a few times till they run away).

I don't think anyone counts in Merlin. The first main antagonist Nimueh thinks nothing of double crossing Merlin when he offers his life as sacrifice and tries to take his mother instead, despite knowing he's destined to become the most powerful sorcerer ever to live and it being much more beneficial to her just to kill him when he offers. She honestly seems surprised when her attempt to kill him afterwards miserably fails and he just blasts her to atoms.

Morganna the main antagonist quickly degrades into an unstable, hypocritical childish brat who completely forgets her own motivations after five minutes of becoming a villain and literally throws a tantrum whenever things don't go her way. All her plans are hopelessly overly complicated and a grand total of one of them ever succeeded (which ironically was her most overly complicated and pointless of all). And she's seemingly incapable of going five minutes with committing some war crime or atrocity, even when detrimental to her cause to do so. She's only still a threat cause of raw power and having more competent underlings whom she occasionally remembers to listen to (and cause Plot Armour and the heroes clutching the idiot ball nearly as often as she does).

Morguase starts of a perfect candidate, manages to nearly manipulate Arthur to kill his father in her first appearance, then nearly destroys the kingdom in her second. But after that she suffers from serious Badass Decay and spends a whole season coming up with overly complicated plans that accomplish nothing, and is the end killed by Giaus.

Really the best candidate is probably Agravaine, who continually successfully manipulates everyone, creates plans that actually work, efficiently removes any loose ends and threats before they become a problem and at one point successfully manages to talk his way out of being caught holding a sword to a person's throat. But he also spends the whole season stupidly besot with Morganna despite her regularly abusing him and ignoring him, so his overall magnificent is diminished.

Edited by MGD107 on Dec 16th 2019 at 2:22:42 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#14530: Dec 16th 2019 at 3:43:09 PM

Has the Arkham Catwoman ever been discussed? Or any version of catwoman, she seems lke she would be an easy keep in most incarnations but I can't think of any approved examples.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#14531: Dec 16th 2019 at 3:52:21 PM

Dunno about this one, but eh. Won't hurt to discuss it since it seems like everyone glossed over this movie. And I didn't see it on the Discussion Dates nor have I seen anyone talk about it recently. Soooooooo here we go!

21 Bridges is an thriller/crime drama that came out a few weeks ago. In the heart of New York City, detective Andre Davis has formed a reputation of taking down cop killers, so long as said shooting is justified. One night, after Andre gets grilled during an Internal Affairs hearing, two ex-soldiers (Michael Trujillo and Ray Jackson) decide to steal several bricks of cocaine hidden within a winery. Shit hits the fan real quick when officers arrive at the scene, leading to a huge shootout that ends with eight police officers dead. Andre is assigned to investigate the case as he—along with other officers—try to find the perpetrators before they flee the city.

What sounds like a standard premise gets complicated though, and it's mainly because of this guy.

Who Is He?

Captain Matt McKenna is the head of the 85th precinct in New York City. He's also the Big Bad for the film.

What Has He Done?

McKenna finds out about the shooting the same time as all of the other police officers. Upon seeing what happened, McKenna strongly advises Andre to kill the perpetrators as opposed to apprehending them. Andre tells him that he'll do whatever he can, but he has no intention of killing them unless provoked. Shortly after this conversation, the manhunt begins. Unbeknown to Andre, some of the police officers killed at the winery were picking up the very same bricks of cocaine that were stolen. They just so happened to run into the robbers at the same time and were slaughtered. McKenna, who is in charge of these officers, knows off the bat that this will lead back to him, so he orders all the officers on his payroll to kill the perpetrators no matter what. Two of McKenna's officers track down a gangster named Bush, who acted as Ray and Michael's liaison. When they enter the club, they immediately shout that Bush has a gun and shoot him in the face, before one of the officers tries to fabricate the scene to make it look like Bush was shot in self-defense. Andre shows up at the crime scene and deduces that something is off.

Later on, McKenna sends Officer Kelly and his team to kill Adi, a well-known money launderer and fixer. They succeed in killing Adi, but not before Adi hands off two flash drives to Michael and Ray. As Ray and Michael keep fleeing, Ray is ultimately cornered and killed by Andre, while Michael takes Burns (a detective McKenna assigned to work with Andre) hostage, and tells Andre about the flash drives. Andre tries to get Michael to give himself up, but he refuses, knowing he'll end up in prison no matter what happens. After several more chase scenes and shootouts, Andre finally corners Michael on a subway train and tells him that if he surrenders and gives up the flash drives, he'll protect him. Michael surrenders.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand is promptly shot by Burns, who had snuck on the train and was hiding Behind the Black. With both perpetrators dead, McKenna and the other officers celebrate. However, the next morning, McKenna finds Andre sitting in his kitchen with his gun out. Turns out that Michael handed over the flash drives before perishing, and Andre knows all about McKenna's operation. McKenna explains himself, saying that he and the cops on his payroll would act as couriers, trafficking cocaine throughout the city to get bigger paychecks because he feels like the cops in the city aren't treated fairly and deserve more money to support themselves and their families. When McKenna finds out that his officers were killed during a routine drug run, he tried to kill everyone involved to cover it all up. McKenna tells Andre that if he exposes the evidence, his life will be hell, and if he looks away, then McKenna will let Andre live. Andre refuses—not to McKenna's surprise, as there are three of his officers hiding outside of his home, ready to kill Andre. Another shootout commences, resulting in Andre killing all of the dirty cops, McKenna included.

Is He Charming? Charismatic? Magnificent?

I wouldn't say charming per say, but in the span of only a few hours, McKenna manages to use his crew of police officers to his advantage. Not only that, but since no one else (at the time) knew that McKenna and his crew were dirty, Ray and Michael just looked like cop killers (which they technically are), so McKenna didn't have to do much to get every officer in the city on his side. McKenna is also a Non-Action Big Bad; he doesn't do anything up until his final scene. All he does is command his officers to kill everyone involved (like Bush and Adi) and to make the crime scenes look justified.

McKenna isn't emotionless, of course. When he finds out that the officers got killed, he's visibly furious—not because his operation was botched, but because these cops in questions had families. Kids won't have fathers anymore, women are widows now, etc. He doesn't seem all that smug either, but he's definitely relying on Xanatos Speed Chess. And when he's finally cornered by Andre, he does try to bargain with the man in exchange for his freedom. But when he gives his Freudian Excuse, he's surprisingly calm and level-headed, and he honestly sounds genuine. Even when Andre refuses, McKenna doesn't have a full-on Villainous Breakdown or anything. He's just annoyed, and attempts to kill him moments later.

Is He a Bastard? Too Much of a Bastard?

All that being said, McKenna is still an asshole. McKenna and his crew are going around trafficking drugs in the city, knowing full well that it'll lead to more crime. Andre even points out that his dad died because one of the three men who beat him to death was high on cocaine and couldn't remember what happened. Ray and Michael are The Heavy and they have nothing to do with McKenna, but when Ray murders the police officers, they call for backup, and four more officers arrive. It's confirmed later on that some of the officers who died were innocent and not on McKenna's payroll.

Most of the deaths in the movie are caused by Ray, but McKenna was indirectly involved with some of the cops' deaths, and he tried to cover it all up by killing everyone who knew about his dirty deeds.

Conclusion?

Dunno honestly. Sometimes when I come across a potential MB, I'm always all like "Well, they kinda sorta tick all the boxes; I guess they count? Maybe?" But with a CM it's all like "No redeeming qualities, did lots of horrible shit—yeah, clear CM here."

This trope is a bit more complex/complicated to get down sometimes. But then again I like that. I was expecting 21 Bridges to have a CM candidate if anything, but it's brimming with Grey-and-Gray Morality. And I love that.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#14532: Dec 16th 2019 at 4:07:47 PM

Um, honestly I'm not really seeing anything that magnificent about McKenna Unless I'm reading it wrong, he simply orders his men to kill off loose ends and set up crime scenes so he won't get exposed.

Granted him finding the last target, predicting Andre would figure it out and turn his offer down shows he's sharp, but I'm not really sure he does enough.

Have to give him a [tdown].

Edited by MGD107 on Dec 16th 2019 at 4:09:13 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#14533: Dec 16th 2019 at 4:44:07 PM

Abstain on McKenna

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#14534: Dec 16th 2019 at 6:03:44 PM

Abstain on Mckenna

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#14535: Dec 16th 2019 at 7:15:48 PM

Might check this one out. Honestly sounds like he’s got potential and this is what I was talking about when I said pay attention to the tone. From what Tyk’s saying it sounds like care for his men and ability to adapt at least get some emphasis, so we’re not just dealing with a “bad villain is bad” scenario.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#14536: Dec 16th 2019 at 8:26:06 PM

[up] Hence my skepticism. On one hand this just sounds like a guy covering up his own mess—albeit, a mess that he didn't create but was partially involved with. And initially he didn't stand out much, up until the scene where he gets caught. He takes his defeat shockingly well and when he's going on about how he and his crew traffick drugs to get more money to support themselves, he sounds...I dunno. It didn't seem like a facade. Guy's a fat hypocrite and Andre tells him Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse, but still. It's there and it didn't sound like he was making up a lie.

On the other hand, I've also seen Black & Blue a month ago (which was very bland compared to this) and it dealt with the exact same shit: dirty cops. Frank Grillo's character was more or less McKenna, but he's clearly a Smug Snake.

Then again he was also aware of what kind of movie he was in.

Edited by Tyk5919 on Dec 16th 2019 at 11:30:01 AM

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#14538: Dec 17th 2019 at 5:23:08 AM

I wanna check this one out myself because I'd like to see exactly how the tone of his character comes across bu honestly for now I'm gonna go with a tentative yeah as well.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#14539: Dec 17th 2019 at 9:26:16 AM

@papyru Have any of the Batman villains from the original film series been brought up or are they all too crazy?

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#14540: Dec 17th 2019 at 9:41:43 AM

Cut these from YMMV.Batman Eternal. Has anyone read the comic?

  • Magnificent Bastard:
    • Jason Bard secures himself in this position; first by forcing Forbes to charge Falcone's men by having Vicky Vale around to report on any open displays of corruption, then taking down Falcone, Forbes, and Penguin, and damaging Hady's press, by using the previous act to get evidence of Fobres' working with Falcone and then tipping Penguin off to Falcone's location, resulting in all three being caught guilty. In #21, however, it turns out he's actually been playing everyone he's encountered, even Batman, and while Batman doesn't like him, he has no idea what he's actually doing.
    • Cluemaster also is revealed to be this, having masterminded the entire plot from just under Batman's nose because nobody, readers and characters in the comic alike, would ever believe that C and D listers could possibly be the true threat of a conflict this widespread. But then he got his throat slashed by Lincoln March.

Why so serious?
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#14542: Dec 17th 2019 at 10:11:18 AM

Having just seen Knives Out to avoid spoilers, god no to Hugh Ransom. He's an utterly detestable, workshy prick. I kinda wish we could get him as a CM, but 3 murders - attempted or otherwise - aren't enough unless you go the extra mile.

Yip to Clock King.

For villains with humiliating defeats - and Jango is a very bad example - I actually think Valentine from Kingsman The Secret Service is a great baseline. His defeat literally has him puking, but as hilarious as it is, he still retains his charm and gets a nice send off. I used to use Hans Gruber's death, but realised Valentine's works better.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#14543: Dec 17th 2019 at 12:02:34 PM

[up]Yeah, Valentine totally went out with grace despite that.

Hoo. This took a lot of work. I re-watched the movie too and edited it while I did it. Needed to make sure it was DEFINITELY ready:

What is the work?

Working Girl is a 1988 romantic comedy about business savvy Tess McGill living in New York and caught in dead end job after dead end job as a lowly secretary to male Wall Street brokers constantly looking down upon her and only expressing interest in her for her attractiveness. That all seems to change when she's sent to become the secretary of someone who clearly isn't valuing her only for her looks, but probably isn't that much better though.

Who is she and what has she done?

Katharine Parker is a Boston broker who transfers over and becomes Tess's latest boss (she's only mere days younger than Tess too). She's welcoming enough to Tess and others around her, but then delegates a lot of menial tasks to Tess as well, such as expecting coffee and for Tess to service the catering at a social event when Tess picked the place herself. She also has Tess buckle her ski boots for her later on too. Tess tolerates it because Katharine is not skirt-chasing or looking down upon her like the men she's been around before and Katharine is building up her importance and offering to help further her career. Around the time Katharine is to go on a ski trip, Tess suggests a new idea: help arrange a merger between the company Trask Industries and Metro Radio because it would help Oren Trask to get started towards involvement in TV and prevent a Japanese competitor from taking his company over. Katharine expresses interest, but then later tells Tess she looked into it and Trask Industries doesn't have any interest in radio at this time.

While on her trip, Katharine suffers an accident and breaks her leg, being ordered to remain in bed for a couple weeks to recover in the hospital (she later has Tess carry her bags and help her to clothe and bath when she gets back). She gives Tess a list of things to do for her while she's gone. Tess goes to Katharine's house to go over her work stuff (numerous voice notes and memos are prepared), but discovers a voice memo Katharine made about taking over the merger idea and claiming it as her own ("Do not go through Tess"). Tess also discovers the written memo Katharine made out to investment banker Jack Trainer (Katharine's boyfriend, but Tess doesn't know that yet) on her computer. Tess decides to pose as a broker herself and take the idea back. She goes to Jack and pitches to him and he gets on board. It turns out Trask Industries and the other company are interested in the idea and things begin to move forward. Tess and Jack fall in love and then Tess finds out about Katharine and Jack, but that Jack was planning to leave Katharine though.

Katharine returns and finds out what Tess is doing and who she's doing it with when she peaks inside Tess's planner. She quickly throws on her clothes, rushes to the meeting and exposes Tess while claiming that the idea is her own and Tess is the one who stole it. Everyone seems to believe Katharine because Tess was already proven to be a liar and Katharine is able to take her place in the meeting. Tess is later leaving the office with all her things and when Katharine confronts her and accuses her of stealing again, Tess stands her ground and Jack, convinced of Tess's knowledge, skills and ingenuity, stands up for Tess and refuses to take part in the merger if she's not involved. Tess then mentions a valuable member of Metro could leave and cause the whole thing to fall apart and make things difficult. That is enough for Trask to realize she knows more than he thought and hear her out.

While Katharine and the others are on one elevator, Tess rides in another elevator with Jack and Trask and explains how she conceived the idea. Convinced of the truth, Trask confronts Katharine about how she came up with the idea and when Katharine is unable to, he warns her that he will make sure she gets "the boot, but good" for what she has done. Katharine ultimately realizes she has lost and walks away to her office for what will clearly be the last time as everyone watches.

Is she magnificent?

I would certainly say so. She commands such presence and authority that everyone in the office goes quiet the instant she enters in through the elevator and even when the titan falls later on, they still remain respectful and silent. She's very affable toward everyone around her (even if not always genuine) and she's able to simply call the lodge and use a personal connection to get the room she wanted, sweet-talking in German or Austrian to do it. Not knowing that Jack is planning to end things, she's already made arrangements for when to get married, having also moved to New York to be near him too. Breaking her leg doesn't make her completely infallible, but she only plans to be confined to a bed for as long as is needed and then go straight back to work. She refuses to let it stop her (she gets out even faster than expected and it's possible it's because she flirted with the doctor and didn't just simply make faster progress).

She shows she's smart enough to keep the evidence of her plan to take Tess's idea at her home so that Tess wouldn't stumble upon it at the office. She also has a cover for this after she notices Tess found the written memo: she had to pitch the idea as her own to make it sound legit and tells her Jack pushed an idea once that wasn't his. This is enough to not only have Tess cast doubt on the idea that Katharine took her idea to begin with, but so that Katharine can also keep Tess from looking into it any further too. When Katharine discovers Tess took the idea back, she gets really pissed off and loses her shit…initially. She channels flying off the handle into righteous anger though by the time she gets to the meeting to finger Tess as an impostor and comes off as someone who is clearly mad, but laid back about it at the point when it is needed.

Katharine also claims that she has an answer to the question that Tess posed about the guy planning to leave the company and she's intending to bide her time to be able to spin it in her favor. She intends to do the same when Trask asks her about how she came up with the idea and then gently asks Jack for back up as a last resort (help Jack is more than happy to reject). When she herself is exposed too, Katharine does not freak out or get angry either. Instead she calmly and peacefully accepts defeat and walks away, retaining dignity in the process. She may be a little clingy with Jack in one scene too, but not much (in addition to marrying him, she wants kids). She keeps her cool with him too when he stands up for Tess and rejects her while she's still in the position to be involved with the merger.

Bitch? Too much?

She shows how capable she is at handling her job and being no nonsense about it. She has that moment where she may be a little too smug to Tess when Tess is leaving with her stuff and it could be seen as she is gloating, but it can also be seen as she is still trying to give the impression that she believes Tess was in the wrong and is judging her as such (she also pulls a veiled Nothing Personal and Just Business too). She pulls back a little when the others are around her to not show her hand about it either. She clearly is someone who is cutthroat about her job to the point that she will take her secretary's idea in order to get ahead even further. When she's over the phone with a colleague she disagrees with, she's cordial even then too. Not to mention she doesn't overstate her annoyance with someone either, she remains very reserved.

Verdict?

I think she's worthy of a [tup]. Thoughts?

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 17th 2019 at 12:30:21 PM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#14547: Dec 17th 2019 at 1:44:11 PM

[tup] Katherine.

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#14548: Dec 17th 2019 at 2:29:39 PM

Whoops please delete this

Edited by randomtroper89 on Dec 17th 2019 at 5:31:44 AM

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#14549: Dec 17th 2019 at 2:29:47 PM

From Regent for Life:

  • Avatar: The Last Airbender: It's All There in the Manual that Long Feng came into power when the current Earth King was coronated at the age of four. Though an adult by the time of the series, the Earth King seems happy letting Long Feng rule over most practical matters, and Long Feng, for his part, is such a Magnificent Bastard that he's managed to keep the King from even knowing that the Earth Kingdom has been at war for the last century.

Sorry Long Feng was never a player.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#14550: Dec 17th 2019 at 2:35:35 PM

[up]Accidental double posting.

I'm also gonna add both Al Capone from The Untouchables, the Thin Man from both Charlie's Angels 2000 and Full Throttle and George Deckert from xXx: State of the Union to my To-Do List too (as well as all the names of the Fillmore! candidates I was thinking of doing so far too). I might begin delegating my potential candidates to other tropers though soon as this trope proves too challenging and not as fun as CM. I have one in progress though and at least one more I'll be starting soon too. Georgie will cover Evelyn/Screenslaver, so she's off the table.

Hey Scraggle. Since I accidentally took Korshunov from you, want to take one of mine? Haha.

Moving on. This is finally ready:

What is the work?

Charlie’s Angels is the 2000 film adaptation/continuation of the 1976 TV series (more to come on that in a bit) about three girls hired to be private detectives by a mysterious millionaire who only ever communicates with them by means of phone calls and they solve cases with the help of his trusted associate and friend John Bosley. The first movie involves them investigating the supposed kidnapping of a tech mogul whose technology could be used for nefarious purposes by Roger Corwin, an unscrupulous rival. Given my use of the word “supposed”, it’s abundantly clear that things are not what they seem.

Who is he and what has he done?

Eric Knox (born John McGann) is a computer tech wizard who firmly believes Charles “Charlie” Townsend betrayed and killed his father during the war years and years ago (his father was actually a double agent killed by the other side when he was caught). Seeking revenge, he stages his own kidnapping as well as the theft of his software and sets up Corwin for all of it under the suspicion of Corwin not only being a shady business tycoon as it is, but expressing interest in his voice recognition technology.

While the Angels are staking out one of Corwin’s parties and the assassin the Thin Man fights the Angels and then leads them to Knox so that Knox can stage his rescue. The Angels and Charlie come to believe that Corwin seeks to sell the technology to anyone who will pay top dollar for it, which is exactly what Knox wants them to think. The Angels learn where the software is likely being kept and they break in and gain access to Red Star Technologies’ (Corwin’s company) network to do it. Knox and his girlfriend Vivian Wood (who is in on it) learn from the Angels that Bosley has the laptop that accesses it and he’s using it to look for the software.

Knox arranges for Vivian to have his men try to attack and kill Angels Natalie Cook and Alex Munday and also has the Thin Man (successfully) murder Corwin. During this, Knox is making love to Angel Dylan Sanders and Vivian is seducing Bosley, but then drugs him and takes possession of both him and the laptop. Knox reveals himself to Dylan, gloats a little, while also answering her question as to why he did all this (“Ask your boss”) and then tries to kill her too. Knox also has the agency blown up too to destroy any evidence left. The Angels eventually reunite and figure out the rest of Knox’s plan and thanks to a bird with a specific call where Bosley is being held, Knox’s location too.

Thanks to having access to Red Star, Knox is able to combine his voice recognition technology with the satellite face recognition and thanks to Charlie calling Bosley at the time he always does (thus why Knox needed to capture Bosley too), Knox locates the cabin Charlie is at. Thanks to Vivian, he’s also able to capture Dylan and keep Natalie at bay while the Thin Man prevents Alex from stopping Knox’s trace on Charlie. Knox then departs in a helicopter and seeing the Angels alive, fires a missile that blows up the castle and they barely escape from. The Angels then give chase thanks to a truck that Bosley has commandeered.

The Angels board the helicopter and as Dylan goes in and attacks Knox, Alex turns the other missile’s heat-seeking on and once it is launched by Knox towards Charlie’s cabin (that Charlie is in), Natalie rips out the copter’s controls. The missile turns around just as Dylan attacks Knox again, but is stopped by Natalie. The Angels all then jump off and get clear just as the missile returns to Knox and the copter vanishes in a giant ball of fire.

Is he magnificent?

So the show and the Charlie's Angels movies (including the 2019 film) are all in the same universe (none of them are in the same universe as the 2011 show). I haven't really seen the original show, but the movies seem to take their plots more seriously. Knox is able to completely fool the Angels and Charlie (the latter of which is not an easy feat) into buying his setup, picking the perfect target in Corwin to help further sell the lie and only misses taking out Charlie in the end by pretty much a second. He delegates some tasks to Vivian and the Thin Man, but he still planned all of them though. Knox kissing the duct tape on Dylan’s lips may come off a little creepy, but it’s very quick. He also taunts her about Charlie being “one more daddy you’ll never know.” Then he addresses killing Charlie again with a tone more akin to cold determination that is handled way better.

Knox has a style and a flair all his own that really makes him shine. He pretty much conceives of a villain and a world domination plot in order to hide what he was really planning to do. Had the Angels not survived and overcome him, he totally would have won and gotten exactly what he did all this stuff for. He is pretty consistently badass and cool throughout the movie. If one wonders why he did not get the real story about how actually killed his father, it seems clear that the truth was not really readily available publically as it was. The story Knox conceives to frame Corwin is also perfect too.

Bastard? Too much?

His manipulation of Dylan is not treated that harshly and she seems more offended that he tricked her rather than took advantage of her. She calls him disgusting, but otherwise, it is kind of glossed over. He also turns to his men and says “You guys like Angel Cake” and then “Dig in” when he leaves them with her, but I do not think he meant it as it comes off. He loses it when the missile doesn’t hit Charlie’s cabin and comes back around towards him and can even be seen crying a little, but those are so close to his final moments that I don’t think any of it ruins his character from the rest of the movie. He also took another beating from Dylan too, so the fact that he does not scream his head off when he sees the missile is commendable though.

Not to mention that wanting revenge is not a spiteful or unsavory motive like Madison or Bosley after him. One was a control freak who wanted to sell out hundreds of federal witnesses just to feel power and get rich off it and the other became an arms dealer because he did not get the job he wanted and also sought to get rich off it (not to mention offering a biological weapon to terrorists and criminals). His targeting of the Angels and Corwin is also to tie up the loose ends too and not personal. Blowing up the castle and killing Vivian and his own men (Thin Man survives somehow) is only done because he’s aiming for the Angels when he fires the missile. Knox’s actions though also driven by hatred and anger are also very much fueled by You Killed My Father mentality and Dylan even offers him a bit of an Alas, Poor Villain when the Angels hear the truth and realize he was ultimately misguided.

Verdict?

I say he certainly musters a [tup]. Any questions?

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 31st 2019 at 12:57:06 PM


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