During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Biggs.
Will say 'Yss' to Biggs, but 'No' to Ransom, far too much of an arrogant dick to me, it seems.
To take a slight break from Star Wars? Here, have a quickie DCAU Keeper.
Who is the Clock King? What makes him a candidate?
Temple Fugate was once an efficiency expert in Gotham City who followed a set routine and schedule each and every day, and ran a successful company. However, on the date of an important court hearing regarding the future of his company, Fugate was convinced by a fellow train-rider—Hamilton Hill—to alter his schedule by 15 minutes and "loosen up", leading to Fugate going for a leisurely stroll in the park before his court hearing... unfortunately, due to rambunctious children Fugate lost his important files for the court hearing and arrived late, where he learned to his utter horror that his company would be sued for $20 million dollars given his failure to appear in court, and as Fugate learns that Hill himself was working as a lawyer for the opposing law firm, he comes to believe that Hill intentionally manipulated him into ruining his schedule.
Years later, Fugate, dubbing himself the "Clock King" and seeking revenge on Hill—who is now mayor of Gotham seeking a second term—begins sabotaging things throughout Gotham, such as traffic lights, to make Hill's running of Gotham look bad, while vandalizing massive campaign banners of Hill to paint him as a joke to the citizens.
When first confronted by Batman, Fugate calmly informs him he's been waiting for his arrival, proclaims himself a "civic-minded citizen with a lot of time on my hands," and effortlessly escapes Batman by leaping off the edge of a rooftop onto a passing train, remarking that it's "always six minutes early" as he takes the leap.
Later luring Batman into a trap in a bank vault, Fugate seals him in with a vacuum tube system. Having left behind a pre-recorded message stating that he's fully aware Batman has plenty of gas masks, so he's instead pumping all of the oxygen out of the room, the tape also reveals that Fugate is aware that Batman would try to use a burning-chemical to melt a door out of the room, and states it would take 17 minutes to do so....while his pumping of the room will take only 15. Fugate's recording rounds things off by revealing that the housing for the vacuum pump decide has a vibrational-triggered explosive inside, so if Batman tries to tamper with it he will be blown to bits, though Fugate says if he'd rather be blown up than suffocate, "that's fine by me."
Though Batman manages to escape through sheet ingenuity by using the tape from the recorder, he is too late to stop Fugate from sabotaging two automated-trains from crashing into each other in the middle of one of Hill's speeches designed around promoting the trains, and Fugate then kidnaps Hill and ties him to a massive clock in Gotham, with the minute hand set to tick away until it crushes him at exactly 3:15, the time Hill told Fugate to take break late. When Hill desperately claims that he wasn't even part of the case against Fugate and it was just his law firm itself, Fugate refuses to believe him, leaving him to die.
As Batman arrives and states that Hill committed no crime against Fugate, the Clock King simply stated "he did worse. He made me late." and proceeds to take the fight to Batman, wounding the hero and sending him on the run as Fugate Chase's him throughout the massive gear-assembly of the clock, effortlessly dodging Batman blows while proclaiming he had intensely studies news footage of the hero to learn his fighting style.
Ultimately, Batman ducks under one of Fugate's blows, and the strike damages the inner-workings of the clock and causes it to begin collapsing. Fugate promptly flees further into the clock, countering Batman's statement that he can't escape by remarking "you of all people should know, there's always a way out!" before laughing as he disappears into the collapsing framework of the clock. Batman manages to save Hill, and Fugate's body is never found....
Flash-forward to his next appearance, the episode "Time out of Joint". Having been working as a butler named "Harold" for the brilliant chrono-scientist Dr. Wakati. Spending months assisting the man in his construction of several devices capable of allowing the user to move at such lightspeeds that time around the user seems to stand still, Fugate takes one out for a test run, using it to easily steal a priceless clock from an auction right in front of everyone's eyes...then promptly toss it in the garbage behind the building as he leaves, stating "eh, (already) got one."
Using the device to infiltrate the mayor's office, Fugate brags that he's going to deliver a "most timely sentence on the judicial system", but he is then blinded by a flash-trap set by Batman and Robin. Confronted by the dynamic duo, Fugate, despite being distraught from the flash, nonetheless mops the floor with the two with use of his device before fleeing the building. Though bumping into a woman on a flight of stairs, sending them both tumbling due to his affected vision and damaging the device—and then comedically whacked by the woman with her purse for being a "klutz"—Fugate quickly reveals he brought a backup device for such an instance, and uses it to evade 4 police officers chasing him, stealing their cruiser in the process.
Later trapping Dr. Wakati in frozen time to steal another of his devices, Fugate plants one of the devices on the underside of the Batmobile, trapping Batman and Robin in time. Though Batman manages to destroy the device by shooting his grapling gun through the floorboard, the heroes were trapped for a full 48 hours, allowing Fugate ample time to plan his master stroke.
Planting a bomb on the underside of a podium at Mayor Hill's upcoming speech at a brand new Gotham court house, Fugate sets it to go off as soon as Hill bangs the podium with a ceremonial gavel, planning to kill Hill and many of the people gathered there as well as destroy the court house as a move against Gotham's judiciary system. Slowing down time as Hill prepares to.bang the gavel so as to fully soak in the moment, Fugate fortunately is confronted by Batman and Robin, who both found their way to Wakati, freed him, and used him to get themselves time devices of their own which they use to battle Fugate. Down to the literal split second, Batman manages to race the bomb away from civilians, detonating it in the Gotham Bay instead as Fugate himself is taken down by Robin.
In his next appearance, in the Canon comics Batman Adventures, Fugate has possibly his finest outing yet. Taking up a new identity as a travel agent named Nicholas Simon, Fugate finds a way to hack into Gotham's new touch-screen voting system as the new mayoral election comes up, and rigs the vote so that Oswald Cobblepot, the Penguin, beats Hill for election in a landslide. Basking in Hill's utter humiliation and defeat unnoticed for months, Fugate is tracked down by an inquisitive Riddler, who discovers the truth about Fugate...only for Fugate to stab him in the back, and though Riddler escapes, he isn't able to give Batman any info beyond vague clues before he has to be put into sedation in critical condition.
When interrogated by Batman and Nightwing in his guise of Simon, Fugate completely fools the two into believing he really is just a nervous travel agent, and once they leave immediately begins packing his things. Though found out by the duo's detective work eventually, Fugate uses a trap clock to blast Batman away from himself (with Batman noting the precision took by Fugate to avoid being affected by the blast himself was insanely impressive) and a gaseous wristwatch to throw off Nightwing before fleeing in his packed-up car.
Pursued by the heroes, Fugate runs his car off the road, leaping out just in time to land atop a passing train he times perfectly, and leaves an incendiary in the car that destroys all the evidence of his rigging Hill's election. Batman and Nightwing pursue, and though Fugate nearly kills the Caped Crusader, Nightwing's assistance results in Fugate's capture. Batman does eventually discover proof of Fugate's vote-rigging, but only thanks to the Riddler having gathered evidence before his stabbing.
In his final appearance, the Justice League Unlimited episode "Task Force X", Fugate doesn't do much, but he is an integral part of a plot by Amanda Waller to break into the League's incredible Watch Tower, being the guiding voice and computer whiz to the Task Force X that helps them pull off a heist from the Watch Tower completely successfully.
Is Fugate magnificent in how he operates?
Most definitely. Fugate is polite (if a bit on the Faux side), efficient, plans escapes effortlessly, and is capable of both forming brilliant plans and quickly altering them on the fly for his benefit. He consistently runs rings around Batman and is only beaten the first time through one wrong punch (and fighting Batman hand-to-hand is something in itself to be applauded) and in "Time out of Joint", Fugate's plan to trap Batman in time would have allowed complete success of his plan if Batman had been literal seconds later in escaping the trap. His outing in Adventures is highly notable as well, as he does the most mundane thing possible—election rigging—and still comes out victorious for months before the combined efforts of Batman and Riddler take him down.
Fugate has his moments of levity and even some rather amusing moments that show him as nowhere near perfect (such as when he trips over a woman, stumbles down steps, and is then whacked several times by her with her purse while he's fleeing Batman), but these moments by no means detract from his brilliance and charm, instead making him almost more endearing by having such goofy moments with him.
When we first see him 7 years in the past, Fugate is obviously tightly-wound and prickish, and has a complete screaming breakdown when he loses the case for $20 million dollars and his business is ruined, but by the present he's obviously far more in control and less emotionally unstable.
Is Fugate a bastard?
Though nowhere near the worst the DCAU has to offer, Fugate nonetheless endangers dozens of people with his plans, and truthfully his grudge against Hill is petty to a point (Hill recommended he loosen up and alter his schedule...so Fugate jumps to the conclusion that he intentionally manipulated Fugate for the purposes of his law firm beating Fugate's, which is admittedly a bit of a leap
), but I don't think this motive in itself is a disqualifier, especially since the ways Fugate goes about "ruining" Hill are so meticulously planned and well thought out.
Final Verdict?
I'd say Fugate Keeps, and it's....about....time.
Edited by Ravok on Dec 15th 2019 at 12:46:18 PM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Yep, I think Kyodai Ken from Batman also Keeps, as well as the Phantasm/Andrea Beaumont. I believe Lighty will be handling Phantasm, but Kyodai's on my checklist. I almost think Hro-Talak from Justice League makes it, but Lighty gave a good argument as to why he doesn't, so probably won't propose him.
to Ransom unfortunately. He's a cool villain, but not really in this way though. Again, my friend used to work at the restaurant they filmed the scene with Marta and Ransom at.
I know, I know search function, but I was gonna put Screenslaver/Evelyn Dever from Incredibles 2 on my To-Do List if no one has any objections. Was she ever discussed before?
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That makes sense. Bullman thought she came off a little too smug. I never was that impressed with her come to think of it. Has moments of greatness, but Syndrome is a very tough act to follow though.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 15th 2019 at 1:18:11 AM
Having seen Knives Out yesterday, no to Ransom. He's a clever schemer, but when the chips are down, the guy has no real charm to him. Sure, he's not that sniveling or pathetic as opposed to a lot of his relatives, but he goes out of his way to be as unlikable as possible.
Yes to the Clock King though
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:10:43 AM
Evelyn? I'd actually think she's not that bad a candidate. Yeah, she's kinda smug, but on the other hand, she not only nearly pulls off her plan, she, a normal woman, managed to nearly kill a super through quick thinking. I don't know, I just think she's not that hard a sell for me, even if she's not as entertaining as Syndrome.
Yea to Clock King, by the way.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Dec 15th 2019 at 2:42:27 AM
Evelyn's worth doing, at the very least.
@DeCarta That would be great if you did Person of Interest.
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsI was actually thinking of looking into Evelyn, I think she's worth proposing at least.
to Biggs and Clock King,
to Ransom, sounds like a textbook example of "High functioning Smug Snake"
Evelyn? Remembering the movie, I might EP her, if no one minds. But I'll ask future first...
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Dec 15th 2019 at 3:21:55 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)![]()
Let's discuss it in PM. I might be open to giving her up. That said, I need the practice though.
EDIT: Come to think of it. Go ahead and take it Georgie. She's all yours.
I also considered both the Chief and Damien from Spice World. You might not be able to take the Chief seriously enough and he might not be enough of a bastard either. Damien does a Heel–Face Turn in the end when the girls catch him, but he breaks down too, so that hurts his chances. Kevin McMaxford is probably a Hate Sink though.
I checked the search engine and I didn't see Al Capone from The Untouchables. Anybody on board?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 16th 2019 at 12:19:29 PM
Real quick... If a villain has a humiliation conga type defeat, does that detract from their magnificence? Because I had another candidate of mine that I was wondering if he still counted. Namely, Simon Keyes/Sóta Sarushiro. I mean the guy gets the crap beaten out of him by animals including birds, a cat, a gorilla, and an elephant. This may be just the nature of the game but is it too undignified that it detracts from someone who would otherwise count? I mean we approved Jango Fett and his death wasn't exactly dignified.
Edited by Klavice on Dec 16th 2019 at 12:06:46 PM
