During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Hey so I found these MB entries on Archer:
- Magnificent Bastard:
- Gillette actually refers to Lana with this moniker after she explains her plan involving all the employees of ISIS getting bragging rights about sleeping with her...which they never actually get to do, all while knowing they would never admit to not having sex with her.
- Security cameras filmed Archer switching blood samples to get out of the paternity suit over the Wee Baby Seamus, so Barry altered the security footage and let Archer get nailed in court. And since Archer waived his rights...
- Cyril, of all people, became a Magnificent Bastard (at least, temporarily) in the episode "El Contador", impersonating a drug lord's personal accountant to take down one of said drug lord's enforcer, free Archer and Lana while also finding time to reorganize the entire operation.
- In "Lo Scandalo", Malory kills the Italian prime minister, uses the ISIS staff's squick reaction to get them to dispose of the body without asking questions, and anonymously calls the cops on herself so they'll discount her as a potential suspect. And it is implied that the whole murder was part of a decades-long plot of revenge against said Italian prime minister for murdering a young man in the 1940's who may have been Archer's father.
- In "Crossing Over", Barry becomes one when he finds and kills Jakov without breaking a sweat.
- And Katya in "Viscous Coupling" when she uses Archer to take over as KGB head and build a ship for Barry to get back to earth.
- Veronica Deane is revealed to be this in the season 7 finale as the mastermind of nearly everything that happened in that season.
- Krieger in Dreamland. He was a Jewish professor who was fired from his position in Nazi Germany, so he faked his death, created a new identity, got himself a position creating cyborgs for their army, and deliberately injected them with a cocktail of substances that caused their deaths - all in order to siphon off as much money as he could from their military budget. Seemingly the only successful cyborg he created was a cat. When the generals finally confront him about this, he admits it all in a fantastic Motive Rant, only for them to discover that, no, he didn't only create a cyborg cat. There were also cyborg dogs, and this is the last thing the generals ever learn. And that isn't even the end of it...
Before I cut them, has someone in this thread has watch most or all the episodes the Archer to decide if any of these characters counts as MBs or are at least are worth looking into?
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 25th 2019 at 10:17:32 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffYes to Samir. Regarding
this, I've only watched the show up until the end of, uh, I think it was season six? So I can't really answer Veronica or Krieger, but as for the rest: Lana has very few feats of villainy, Barry ends up devolving into a sadistic maniac, Cyril is the crowning king of pathetic, and Malory is more than a little racist and overall very unpleasant. Katya is doable on paper, but I just found her to be so terribly dull that I wouldn't be on board with her.
Edited by DocSharp on Nov 25th 2019 at 12:59:06 PM
I'll make my first-ever MB vote a
for Samir. That episode where it turned out Hassan was already dead was probably one of the biggest Wham Episodes of the entire series.
YMMV.Supernatural S 03 E 04 Sin City
- Magnificent Bitch: Casey again. She damned an entire town to Hell with only one little lunch-date, and only had to sit back and watch the results. When hunters started coming in to investigate, she took one out with absurd ease, then tore out the other's book and trapped him in with her to keep him unable to exorcise her until Father Gil came from her, all literally without her having to lift a finger. She then proceeded to manipulate Dean and the audience so beautifully that both came out of the episode believing that she was a Friendly Neighborhood Demon despite them already knowing all of her aforementioned crimes, including that she had murdered Richie, one of Dean's few friends and fellow hunters.
I haven't seen that episode in ages so I can't weigh in...
Oh and from YMMV.Chick Tracts of all things
- Magnificent Bastard: Jack Chick’s version of Satan. A large number of Christians who otherwise would go straight to Heaven are doomed to hell because they are members of the Catholic Church. A religion created by no one else other than the devil himself.
I'd say cut.
Edited by Silverblade2 on Nov 25th 2019 at 1:24:09 PM
Though that Satan MAY work as The Chessmaster, or at the very least Manipulative Bastard.
to Thunderhead and Samir Mehran.
I've watched Archer up to present, and I don't think either Veronica or Krieger counts. Veronica turns out to be mastermind behind the Longwater embezzlement scam and responsible for a few murder (including shooting Sterling) but Longwater is more a McGuffin than anything else and really the events make her look more petty than impressive. As for Krieger he is genuinely impressive, but as the entire season is just Archer's coma dream, he's merely a product of Archer's mind and doesn't have any actually agency.
Casey from supernatural, maybe? I mean she does stand out compared to the majority of demons in that she's just manipulates human weaknesses to get people to damn themselves (such as corrupting a local philanthropist simply by bringing to his attention the sheer amount of money he could easily be making), whilst preferring to avoid bloodshed, she did more or less corrupt the town and had an actual ideology behind her, rather than just wanting suffering for sufferings sake. Not to mention her actress gave a wonderful performance.
But at the same time I think the exaggerating her achievements. I mean she kills Richie with ease, but Richie wasn't presented as a good hunter (Dean openly warned him that he wasn't cut out for this lifestyle and would get himself killed), when she tried the same tactic on Dead he effortlessly caught her in a devils trap and only got out of it cause she knew a spell that caused a mini-earthquake trapping him in there with her.
He only couldn't exorcise her cause he lost his book in said spell and hadn't memorised it at this point in the series, and after that she doesn't do much but strike a repertoire with Dean for the rest of the episode. The reveal that Father Gil (the respected town preacher) was also possessed and corrupting the town also throws into question how much she actually accomplished. Likewise whilst convincing the residents to indulge and sin more, it feels a stretch to claim she successfully damned the whole town, according to the shows lore you have to be very heinous to get damned.
I guess I'll bite the bullet and do an EP for Killmonger.
What is the Work?
Black Panther (2018) is the 21st entry in the Marvel Cinematic Universe and chronicles the ascension of King T'Challa, the titular Black Panther, to the throne after his father's death in Captain America: Civil War, facing challenge from an adversary from his father's past who seeks to instigate a global revolution.
Who is the Candidate and what does he do?
Prince N'Jadaka, named Erik Stevens, is the son of T'Chaka's brother N'Jobu with an American woman. In 1992, T'Chaka discovered that N'Jobu helped arms dealer Ulysses Klaue steal vibranium from Wakanda and confronted him, where T'Chaka killed N'Jobu to stop him from killing his friend Zuri; it was Erik who discovered his father's body. After Erik's mother died in prison, he went to the foster care system. Erik proved to be highly intelligent, graduating from the US Naval Academy at Annapolis at the age of 19 and as an MIT grad student. He then joined the Navy Seals and a Joint Operations Special Command, earning the nickname "Killmonger" for his high killcount (the highest amongst his squad) and ritualistically tallying every kill on his body.
Killmonger is introduced at an African exhibit in a London museum, critiquing the displays and the history behind them. He "offers" to take an artifact, a vibranium axe, from the museum before telling the curator that he had her poisoned and when she collapses, has his associate Ulysses Klaue show up, disguised as a paramedic. Killmonger and Klaue steal the axe, kill the curator and several guards, and leave.
Killmonger has Klaue set up a sale for the axe for the CIA and Klaue is captured; this is all part of the plan though, since Killmonger frees him. Once they are alone apart from one henchman and Killmonger's girlfriend Linda, Killmonger kills Klaue and his henchman (and his girlfriend when Klaue uses her as a human shield) and flies to Wakanda, bribing the Border Tribe with Klaue's corpse for passage into Wakanda.
When brought before T'Challa, Killmonger, who has already persuaded the Border Tribe to join him, reveals his ancestry to the elders, chastises T'Challa and Wakanda for their indifference to the suffering of black people around the world, and challenges T'Challa for the throne. Killmonger brutally beats T'Challa, nearly kills him, and takes the throne, beginning plans to send Wakandan arms around the world to start a revolution. When T'Challa appears, having survived his injuries, Killmonger sends the Border Tribe on him and fights T'Challa's bodyguards and allies in battle, eventually fighting T'Challa himself.
Does he think on his feet?
Killmonger's suit is compromised when T'Challa has the sonic transport trains activated; Killmonger just states that he doesn't need a suit to kill T'Challa and continues fighting. Despite his skills, Killmonger is outmaneuvered and stabbed by T'Challa. Killmonger compliments him, referring to it as a "hell of a move", makes two last requests: one to see the sunsets since his father told him that they were the most beautiful in the world and to bury him at sea, refuses medical treatment, and then pulls the blade out of his chest, refusing to be imprisoned.
Competition?
T'Challa decides that Wakanda failed Killmonger by abandoning him, goes public about Wakanda's true nature and starts sending aid. So Killmonger did win, he just didn't get to live to see it and do it his way. It's notable that T'Challa allows him to commit suicide while he did not allow Zemo, another Magnificent Bastard, that same action.
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsI also have a revision for Magua.
Original:
- The Huron warrior Magua was enslaved by the Mohawks thanks to the British Colonel Munro. Seeking revenge, Magua won over the Mohawk, becoming their blood brother until he could rejoin the Huron, only to discover his wife, thinking him dead, had married another after their children died. Filled with rage, Magua bides his time, leading a British patrol to its doom and later causes the fall of Munro's fort before massacring his followers and carving Munro's heart out before seeking to kill his daughters. When he faces Nathaniel Bumpo's adoptive brother Uncas, Magua shows his skill by killing him with no effort whatsoever, repeatedly showing why he is one of the most dangerous men on the frontier.
Revised:
- The Huron warrior Magua was enslaved by the Mohawks thanks to the British Colonel Munro. Seeking revenge, Magua won over the Mohawk, becoming their blood brother until he could rejoin the Huron, only to discover his wife, thinking him dead, had married another after their children died. Filled with rage, Magua bides his time, leading a British patrol to its doom and later causes the fall of Munro's fort before massacring his followers and carving Munro's heart out before seeking to kill his daughters. When he faces Nathaniel Bumpo's adoptive brother Uncas, Magua shows his skill by killing him with no effort whatsoever, repeatedly showing why he is one of the most dangerous men on the frontier. When he is attacked and killed by Uncas' father Chingachgook in revenge, Magua simply exchanges a long look with him and leans forward to receive the final blow.
Edited by k410ren on Nov 25th 2019 at 1:43:55 PM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsI thought Killmonger already was up. Why was he downvoted, I forget a lot of the specifics with the film but I remember him being very cool and smart.
Actually nevermind, I just looked though his character page and found the Politically Incorrect Villain part.
Edited by papyru30 on Nov 25th 2019 at 4:04:23 AM
Oh no it's not the Politically Incorrect Villain part.
It's the fact he's kinda an unstable manchild at the end of the day.....
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Well the fact that he was a Politically Incorrect Villain certainly influenced some peoples downvotes, but the Psychopathic Manchild personality did as well.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid@papyru30: I think you may have been confused with Killmonger from Avengers Assemble, who we did vote up.
But yeah, I'm echoing the sentiments here.
to MCU Killmonger. Fantastic villain, but his end goal is really just to lash out at the world with no actual plan on how to lead Wakanda afterwards. He makes it clear he doesn't really respect the traditions of Wakanda or care about how many people are hurt by his quest for vengeance.

Edited by G-Editor on Nov 24th 2019 at 2:45:10 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff