During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Happy Birthday, G. Here's a quote suggestion as a present.
Edit: On that note, I think we need to change the spelling of Josh's last name to match how it was spelled in the movie for his writeup.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 19th 2019 at 10:01:39 AM
Out of curiosity, do you guys thinks that Gerald Robotnik is worthy of an EP?
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Browsing Better Call Saul, stumbled onto what looks like an unapproved entry.
- Magnificent Bastard: Mike embarks on a gambit that even puts his handiwork in "Mabel" to shame. He hits another one of Hector's ice cream trucks, but instead of robbing it, he engineers an ingenious scenario that involves planting drugs on the truck, by stuffing them inside a pair of shoes, which then deposit the cocaine powder when Mike shoots them from a hilltop with a rifle. The Border Patrol subsequently arrest the drivers when the sniffer dogs find the drugs. And we see that Mike has learned from the mistakes he made the last time he hit Hector. The robbery merely disrupted Hector's operation and got two people (the driver and an innocent bystander) killed. This time, Mike and Gus have guaranteed that the Feds come down hard on Hector and shut him down completely, as Mike had planned for the first job to do. Unlike last time, Mike ensures that this plan won't end with civilians in the crossfire. And as the flash-forward in the opening shows, this operation has caused Gus to gain an edge in the drug market.
Someone remind me, did we ever discuss Mike in any detail? Aside from Gus and Vaccuum Guy, seems like he'd be an obvious third qualifier based on his appearances in both Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
I don't think that we had a full discussion on Mike yet. If you want, you can give him a proper EP, assuming if he needs one.
- Reign in Hell:
- Nephera Vallikan, the Crimson Empress of Annihilation, is one of the keenest minds in a race of demons that pride themselves on complex scheming as an everyday way of life. Introduced outwitting and slaying two traitors to her House, Nephera allies with Lucifer when he pledges to steal the throne of Hell and constructs a series of daring gambits to wrest power from the charismatic Azazel Baal. Nephera charms and bargains with many of the Houses to get them to ally with her cause while disguising her true cunning under the facade of a flirty, clueless socialite. Even when her father betrays her, Nephera banks on his compassion to infiltrate his House and derails Azazel's schemes through the use of a Memory Gambit she employed with her friend Maray. Nephera is forced to put down her father to earn the throne of Vallikan, but wins his total respect in doing so and graduates soon after to one of Hell's greatest, most daring nobles.
- Mammon, the Sin of Greed, is a ruthless but affable devil who covets everything precious and worth protecting. As good a manipulator as any of her comrades or Lucifer himself, Mammon caretakes after the rare and endangered in the Teraverse while simultaneously always plotting for self-gain. Mammon shows her true cunning by engaging and outsmarting Azazel's own chief evil genius Shax Focalor, playing Azazel's Houses against each other before finally defeating Shax by making him think she's targeting the children he protects—a deed she'd never truly stoop to, resolving to protect Shax's children even after finishing off Shax himself.
- Sherlock Holmes (Soleil): James Moriarty himself is the brilliant Napoleon of Crime and the only mind sharp enough to match the wits of Sherlock Holmes. Once the ruthless enforcer for the Moriarty crime family, Moriarity murdered his abusive father Henry and proceeded to reinvent himself as a criminal mastermind, engaging in one daring plot after the next that seemingly ended with his plummet off Reichenbach Falls. Resurrecting himself through the Necromomicon, Moriarty's subsequent bid for power lands him in the realm of the Elder Gods, whereupon Moriarty remains unflappably defiant to what would otherwise be a case of And I Must Scream, until the point he tricks the Elder Gods themselves into allowing him passage back to Earth. From there, Moriarty tracks down the copies of the Necronomicon to destroy them, infiltrating a cult by skinning and wearing the hide of one of the cultists. When the cult summons an abomination to destroy him, Moriarty watches coolly as the abomination turns away from him in intimidation and slaughters the cult instead. Determined, unfettered, and even retaining a few odd soft moments such as his fondness of children that set him apart from the more despicable villains of the series, Moriarty remains as ever the most cunning criminal Holmes has ever fought.
Oh well. I'll EP him later and then we'll see what happens.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Found in YMMV.Arrow S 6 E 13 The Devils Greatest Trick
- Magnificent Bastard: Diaz has been playing everyone like a fiddle, all so he could take control of the city.
I know Diaz has been discussed (and downvoted) on the CM thread but I don't know if he has been brought up here.
I found these on Underworld Unleashed.
- Magnificent Bastard:
- Lex Luthor and The Joker. Both appear to be studying Neron's Soul Jar, and have roped several other villains in Neron's Inner Council (Circe, Abra Kadabra, and Doctor Polaris) into breaching it to absorb Neron's power. Once the thing breaks, the three are suckered in and scattered away - exactly what Luthor and Joker wanted, so they could scheme behind Neron unmolested. Neron, however, had previously duped both and imprisoned them in what seems to be a snowstorm in Metropolis... which is actually just a snowglobe. The looks on Luthor and Joker's faces once they reach the walls is priceless.
- Neron did meet his match when trying to deal with the bounty hunter Lobo. Lobo was more than happy to trade away his soul for a wish. Wishing for Neron's soul. Fair trade. Needless to say Neron was unwilling to grant that wish, and ended up having to give back Lobo's soul AND grant him a free wish just to get out of the contract. A wish he immediately used to screw with Neron even more.
- Believe it or not, Captain Marvel is this. He defeats Neron by himself. Not by a fight, but simply by giving him what he wanted through the whole story — and doing it in such a way that Neron has to give up everything he got through the story.
Now Lex is already a MB. Joker and Neron are CMs. Lobo and Marvel are nowhere near this trope. Permission to burn these.
Edited by Bullman on Nov 19th 2019 at 12:42:09 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadDone with Season 2 of Mayans M.C.. Similar to the CM forum, no one counts. Only possible contender so far was Lincoln Potter, who is clearly a Smug Snake. So no to him.
Adelita had shades of this back in Season 1. But in Season 2....eh. Not so much. She spends most of the season being Potter's prisoner and not much else.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.

Happy Birthday G!
Things are really about to get Fun around here