During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to Tom and Mr. Brooks.
Also since Ellen is getting looked at again on CM I'll mention she's getting referenced here on the character page for The Witch's House:
- Despair Event Horizon: She hits it after her father shouts that she's a monster and shoots her in the head when she can't get him to recognize her, and whisks Ellen away in her body after Ellen pauses to rub salt in the wound by giggling at Viola. Viola's despair actually kills her, as a witch can only lose her immortality through despair and Viola was a witch at that point; when she hit the Despair Event Horizon, she lost the immortality that'd been keeping her going up until that point, and died. Just as Ellen planned.
Now... whether or not she gets deemed a CM or changed to Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds I can confidently say the shit she pulls is too fucked for this trope. Cutting.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Ellen as an MB? Oh dear god! No, easy no. Regardless of her status or CM/WDOW...yeah, I agree the shits that she pulls with Viola is way too fucked up to be considered as an MB. Cut that pothole away
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Lizzid people!
- "Hop-o'-My-Thumb": Tom Thumb was the youngest of seven boys, but he compensated for this with his brain. Learning that his parents were intending on abandoning him and his brothers in the forests, Tom gathers small pebbles to create a pathway home. When they were captured by a voracious ogre, Tom switches gold crowns with bonnets, tricking the ogre into killing his own daughters. When the ogre chased after them for vengeance, Tom takes the opportunity to steal his seven-league-boots and returns to the house to manipulate the ogre's wife into giving him all of the ogre's possessions under the claim that her husband was being held captive. Tom later joins an unnamed court, getting appointed with militaristic tasks, before returning home.
Knight Bachelor
@ Hamburger Time: No, not at all. My thought are in the edit I made, feel free to use, borrow, steal, or ignore as you see fit.
Goku Black
@HT : As someone whose watched it to. I'm curious to see your ep.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Wild Child
On Sleepy Hollow.
- Magnificent Bastard: It's hard not to be impressed with Henry/Jeremy/War after what he pulled off over the course of season 1.
Goku Black
Ask MGD?
Hes watched the entire thing or Lighty since he covered the first season.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Wild Child
Also, on Superman vs. the Amazing Spider-Man.
- Magnificent Bastard: Lex has plans for almost any eventuality.
This iteration of Luthor is a CM, and his entry states he attempts to wipe out humanity out of petty spite. Cutting away.
Why so serious?
Wild Child
Also, for Sword Art Online, Seijirou Kikuoka's entry got removed from the YMMV page.
Why so serious?
Goku Black
.....They moved the entry wholesale to Designated Hero. Lol.
That troper apparently doesn't like him very much. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Put it back, mark in Ask The Tropers that they pulled that and holler their ass if they try for an edit war.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Ooh! Someone else besides me is aware that Mr. Brooks is a thing. :D
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for Earl Brooks.
Knight Bachelor
. . . now I kinda want to watch Mr. Brooks again.
Wild Child
Brooks.
Lizzid people!
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Alright, time to begin!
What's the work?
Sky High (2005) is a delightful live-action Disney mov- wait, wait, come back, they do exist! Ahem, anyway, the film is a beautiful slab of ham and cheese that serves as an Affectionate Parody of both the superhero and teen drama genres, and has some surprisingly deep messages beneath it all. It follows 14-year-old Will Stronghold, powerless son of the world's two greatest superheroes, Steve (aka the Commander) and Josie Stronghold (aka Jetstream). He's about to start Superhero School at the eponymous Sky High, which literally floats in the sky above Will's hometown of Maxville - and as you can imagine, the whole "no powers" thing means he's kind of dreading it. Can you believe this movie predates My Hero Academia by a decade? The school has a pretty serious dark side beneath its shiny veneer - it's run by a Fantastic Caste System that judges students based on how useful their powers are; anyone below a threshold is forced to study to become a Kid Sidekick instead of a full-fledged hero. Anyway, along for the ride are a surprisingly well-developed supporting cast, including Will's friends Zach, Ethan, and Magenta, who all have, uh, not exactly stellar powers; a bevy of amusing and borderline-insane teachers played by various famous people; Will's rival Warren, son of his dad's nemesis; and of course the women in his life, sweet girl next door with a crush Layla (a chlorokinetic) and Will's own crush and eventual girlfriend, Gwen. However, one of these people is not who they seem to be...
Who is the candidate? What do they do?
Gwen Grayson (played by a pre-big break Mary Elizabeth Winstead devouring as much scenery as she can) is Sky High's student council president; everyone's friend, everyone's idol, everyone's crush. Recognizable by her height, beauty, and fondness for all things hot pink, Gwen is more than just a pretty face - she's a scientific genius who can control technology with her mind - that's her in the page image, in fact. Will is so smitten with her that "True" by Spandau Ballet starts playing whenever he sees her, and to his delight she reciprocates his feelings after he manifests super-strength defending his friends from a very angry Warren. This is not a spoiler because it's in the trailer.
Anyway, before we proceed, there's another character we need to introduce - early in the film Will's parents defeat a giant robot and take its eyeball for their trophy room. Later on, we see that the eye is a camera, operated by a cloaked figure and a sniveling little man dressed as a jester, whom the cloaked person frequently strangles when he's being annoying. They're watching for openings they can use to steal one of the other trophies, a ray gun called the Pacifier, taken from a villain named Royal Pain; Steve and Josie fell in love while mutually pursuing this villain, who seemingly died during the final battle. See, I told you this movie was surprisingly deep.
Anyway, Gwen and Will's relationship culminates in deciding to go to Homecoming together, but it also becomes apparent that she and her popular friends are deliberately trying to limit his time with his friends in the sidekick class. Gwen has Will wrapped around her finger until the point she throws a party in his house without her permission and makes Layla cry when she objects to this. Will tells her to take a hike and she and the other kids are ejected by Will's parents. Will decides not to go to Homecoming, but his parents go because the school has offered them an award if they make an appearance there. Ooh, big mistake. Gwen makes her grand entrance dressed as Royal Pain; the man who was supposedly her father was actually the jester guy, Stitches (played by a pre-big break Jim Rash devouring as much scenery as he can) and the school bullies are in on it too. The bad guys used the party as a distraction to steal the Pacifier from the trophy room. Gwen reveals the gun's function is to turn anyone its laser strikes into a newborn baby; Gwen intends to indoctrinate these super-babies into an army of villains loyal to her, and also destroy Sky High by dropping it out of the sky. And why is she doing this? Because she is Royal Pain! Born Sue Tenney in the late '50s or early '60s, her power was deemed useless when she went to Sky High and she was stuck in the sidekick class, picked on by all the hero-track kids; it's implied VERY strongly that Steve himself may have been one of the worst of these bullies. Swearing to break the system that broke her, her scheme was cut short when she was hit by her own weapon, reverting to a baby who was raised by Stitches to continue the plan when she came of age.
Will realizes that the Pacifier has been stolen and races to the rescue, aided by his friend, the school's exceptionally badass bus driver. He reunites with his friends, now including Warren, who took Layla to the dance to irritate Will and who is nowhere near as bad as he seemed (everyone act surprised!). Apologies and forgivenesses are exchanged, score are settled in the showdowns with the bullies, and, of course, good ultimately triumphs. Gwen, Stitches and their crew are hauled off to jail, with Gwen griping that this result was not worth going through puberty twice.
Is she magnificent? A bitch? TOO much of a bitch?
Oh, Gwen is more than magnificent, she's fabulous. She's a brilliant inventor and scientist, a charismatic speaker, Consummate Liar, irresistible seductress, and impeccably stylish fashionista. She commands absolute trust and loyalty in the man that raised her, who seemingly willingly stepped back into his old henchman position when she was old enough, and the bullies, who have nothing apparent to gain from the scheme. She managed to climb to the highest position in the student hierarchy without any of the teachers suspecting a thing. Her scheme is obviously terrible, but it's treated as an amusing Silver Age, sort of deal; the worst aspect of it, dropping a flying building on a populated area, is left largely to Fridge Horror, acknowledged only in a single scene where it nearly squishes a cameo appearance by Tom "Spongebob" Kenny and his real-life wife... which is itself Played for Laughs. It's fairly easy to interpret her as having genuinely fallen for Will on some level, and she has a pretty terrible Freudian Excuse as well, one that plays into the unexpectedly resonant real-life social satire, where she was either a victim of a broken system or indoctrinated by a lunatic to believe she was, depending on if you think she remembers.
Yeah, I should talk about that. The film is frustratingly vague on if she has any memories of her previous life. I've droned on long enough so I'll just say there are some scenes that make more sense if she remembers and others that make more sense if she doesn't. Where does Gwen end and Sue begin? Uhh, search me. She also does have a couple breakdowns, the worst being, oddly enough, when Will dumps her; her actual defeat, comparatively, she responds to with Tranquil Fury and the aforementioned crack about going through puberty twice.
Verdict?
I can see excellent arguments either way. Discuss away!
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
I think I'll say yes to Gwen for now; I think her scheme being treated as an Affectionate Parody of Silver Age villain schemes adds to her charm.
Short-Term Projects herald
The whole "getting mad at Will for rejecting her" thing I feel was part of the high school girl façade.
She gets a from me pending further arguments.
Tentative to Gwen
RIP Toriyama
Ehhhhhh, gotta give Gwen a 'No', unfortunately. She's a good villain from a great cult film, but she comes off to me very much as a bitchy control freak who loses her temper several times. She screams "I told you never to CALL ME THAT!" at Stitches when he calls her "daddy's little girl," gets pissy when Will breaks up with her, and, when the Commander responds to her big reveal as a supervillain with a simple "Royal Pain...is a girl?", she annoyingly growls "Yes I'm a girl you idiot!"
Also the scene where she's trying desperately to figure out to strap the babies into their car seat restraints while screaming in frustration at Stitches for not reading the directions properly doesn't help her "magnificence," instead, again, making her come off as a temperamental teenager.
Gwen's smart and has a charm about her, but when it comes down to it she's got way too much of a rageful, easily-annoyed personality for me to vote her up. Won't at all be offended or complaining if she goes up, but I personally vote 'No.'
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Thank you for describing each of her breakdowns in more detail. I probably should've done that myself, but the post was getting long as it was.
Seeing the arguments for and against, I will abstain.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Yeah, this's a tough one....I'm stuck between
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Tom and Brooks
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."