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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#12976: Sep 18th 2019 at 6:23:50 AM

[tdown]DOR-15. It doesn't take a genius to manipulate Goob, the fact that she decided to enslave humanity because she feels she's superior to them may suggest Fantastic Racism, and overall she is charmless.

Edited by username2527 on Sep 18th 2019 at 6:25:15 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#12977: Sep 18th 2019 at 6:26:28 AM

When was Fantastic Racism a bad thing? I mean, contextually in works like Harry Potter it would be because Death Eaters = Nazis.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#12978: Sep 18th 2019 at 6:35:45 AM

I thought this thread looked down on any kind of racism.

hittheassassin Since: Jan, 2018 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
#12979: Sep 18th 2019 at 6:43:04 AM

[tup] to Tamir, but I'm not sure about Doris. While Doris does have the brains, she/it doesn't seem to have the necessary charm to make her/it qualify.

As for me, I'm going to propose what is probably my hardest candidate so far. From Persona 4 Arena Ultimax, we have our Egocentric Police Dick Tohru Adachi.

Who is he? What does he do?

For those not familiar with the franchise, beware of spoilers for both Persona 3 and Video Game/Persona 4. Tohru Adachi debuts in Persona 4 as a bumbling detective in the small town of Inaba, and the partner and friend of the main protagonist's uncle. Late in the game, however, Adachi is revealed to be behind the serial murders that plagued the town. Adachi tries to escape capture by entering the TV world, but was defeated by the Investigation Team and imprisoned for his crimes.

Cut to one year later to the events of the Persona 4 Arena duology. Adachi is still imprisoned, still being interrogated for how he committed his murders, because guess what, there's no way you can prove that you murdered someone by pushing them into a TV world containing Eldritch Abominations. During the interrogation, however, the detective interrogating him gets possessed by the Big Bad Sho Minazuki. Adachi is then forced to enter the TV world and meets Sho in person. Sho or rather his split personality Minazuki tells Adachi how he plans to destroy the world for Sho.

Minazuki explains that he plans to force the heroes from Persona 3 and Persona 4 to fight one another, and he will gather from them Persona fragments. Minazuki forces Adachi to cooperate, or else he will kill him. Adachi is unwilling to get involved, but realises that if he dies, the investigation on his murders will keep continuing. So he plays along, but decides to make plans in trying to undermine Sho's plans.

Encountering the heroes in separate occasions, Adachi pretends to put on an act of working with Sho, secretly dropping hints of Sho's plans to them. During a skirmish with Sho and Yu, Minazuki manifests and almost kills him. However, Adachi steps in and stops Minazuki, convincing him that he needs the heroes for his plan to succeed, to which Minazuki relents.

In the P3 route, Adachi makes an appearance where he arrives just in time to save the Shadow Operatives from an army of shadows, clearing the path for them so they could help the Investigation Team. He divulges to them of Sho's plan to use the persona fragments he collected to summon a god.

At the climax, while Sho is distracted in trying to summon this god, Adachi takes the chance to try and destroy the combined persona fragments. Unfortunately, one bullet wasn't enough and Sho discovers Adachi's attempts to thwart his plans. The two fight, but Sho empowered by the fragments overpowers Adachi. He proceeds to beat Adachi for his betrayal, revealing that he plan's to use Adachi's power to tame the god he intends to summon.

Yu arrives just in time to save Adachi, and realised what Adachi was trying to tell him. Sho gets betrayed and possessed by the god, named Hi-No-Kagutsuchi, who is the true Big Bad of the duology. In the P4 route, Yu and Adachi team up, fusing their personas and manage to defeat Hi-No-Kagutsuchi, before Adachi passes out from his injuries.

Once the battle's over, Adachi parts ways with Yu, choosing to return to his prison and continue atoning for his crimes. In his epilogue, several months after the events of the game, Adachi is visited by his former partner Dojima, where the two reconcile.

Is he Magnificent? What's the Competition?

I would say that Adachi would only qualify for this game. In Persona 4, Adachi comes off as too smug and immature to qualify. His reasons also come off as too petty -wanting to see the world destroyed because his life supposedly isn't fair and For the Evulz. And despite thinking that he's big shit, he's still an Unwitting Pawn to the Greater-Scope Villain.

But at least in my opinion, it's the reason he stands out more in this game, and shows how much he has grown as a character. Like before, Adachi tends to play up his goofiness to his advantage, Obfuscating Stupidity in order to hide his intentions. He divulges information to the heroes and lead them on the right path without them or the Big Bads being aware of it until it was too late. And unlike before where he undergoes a Villainous Breakdown when pushed, he still retains a cool head and a smile on his face. Even as he's being beaten by a pissed off Sho, he simply gives the guy “The Reason You Suck” Speech, calling him out for his Suicidal Cosmic Temper Tantrum just like the Investigation did to him last time.

Though his attempts to thwart the villains' schemes himself failed, he successfully led the heroes on the right path to stop them. And eventually, he ends up back in his jail cell, as he intended.

As for the competition, Sho is a Psychopathic Manchild who loses his cool very often, just like pre-Character Development Adachi. Minazuki is much less so, but he ultimately ended up getting strung along by the Bigger Bad. And for Hi-No-Kagutsuchi himself, he's an Eldritch Abomination Made of Evil who comes off as too smug that led to his defeat.

Is he too much of a Bastard?

Make no mistake, Adachi is still a Troll and a sociopathic Jerkass, and his attempts to turn over a new leaf isn't truly a change of heart to him. After being beaten by the Investigation Team, Adachi realises that he had lost the "game", and thus has to play by the rules as the loser. The reason why he chose to work against the Big Bads is because they would interfere in his attempts to reform. Adachi outright states that he's an even bigger bastard to Sho's face, saying that he comes off as more hateful and wretched than Sho could ever be - which means that Sho still as a chance to atone for his crimes.

That being said, Adachi under his Jerkass exterior shows some redeeming qualities. The most notable one is that he cares for the Dojima family, who treat him as their own despite the horrible crimes he committed. When interrogated by the detective, Adachi remained impassive, until the detective insulted Dojima. Adachi proceeds to give the detective a verbal beatdown, without losing his cool or the cocky smile on his face. And when Dojima visits him in prison, he's genuinely touched, though he refuses to outright say it.

Overall Verdict?

Adachi in my opinion qualifies, but only for Ultimax. Like I said before, Persona 4 has him come off as too much of a Psychopathic Manchild and a Smug Snake . However, he sheds these traits to become a more Affably Evil Nominal Hero who successfully plays both the heroes and the bad guys alike. It shows how much Character Development he had undergone.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#12980: Sep 18th 2019 at 6:45:04 AM

Uh for that one.

It depends on if it's being used as a metaphor for a real life prejudice. If not we give leeway.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Fan727 Since: Sep, 2019
#12981: Sep 18th 2019 at 6:54:57 AM

Well, looks like Doris isn't going to be upvoted.

Then bye again, community.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#12982: Sep 18th 2019 at 6:57:19 AM

Wasn't Adachi attempted to rape someone? That's an instant no-no in my books. But uhhh...Could go either way. Persona 4 is self-contained no?

Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Sep 18th 2019 at 1:57:53 PM

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#12984: Sep 18th 2019 at 2:56:39 PM

Adachi has way too many disqualifying factors in Persona 4 to count in that game, and while he seems to shed them in Ultimax, he doesn't really seem to be enough of a bastard in Ultimax. So [tdown] on both accounts.

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Sep 18th 2019 at 5:57:33 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#12985: Sep 18th 2019 at 3:06:22 PM

[tdown] to Adachi and Doris

Anymore votes on Tamir.

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#12987: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:16:05 PM

I said I was going to check out Doris to see if she counted as this on the CM thread. But I don't have a To do list so I suppose it isn't your fault for not knowing that, abstain on her BTW.

And @Username

Fantastic Racism means nothing unless it's clearly a metaphor for real life Prejudice like in Harry potter, it's why Magneto and Grimmel are up here.

Also if I'm going to nitpick nothing suggests Doris has a particular hatred of Humans, she enslaves them to Take Over the World.

Edited by Kylotrope on Sep 18th 2019 at 4:17:14 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#12988: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:51:55 PM

Magneto's up because his prejudice is born from the deep seated horrors of his life coupled with his genuine belief that humans and mutants cannot co exist.

He is not up because his "racism is not an allegory for real racism." If anything, Magneto's whole arc is one of the most tragically realistic takes on such a topic that a story about a guy who is the master of magnet can tell. Like, for goodness sake, X-Men has been a Civil Rights allegory for decades. Saying Magneto's stuff is not allegorical is simply wrong.

He is the symbol for the oppressed fighting back. We have him up because we understand him. And a part of us roots for him.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#12989: Sep 18th 2019 at 5:06:26 PM

[up] I actually agree, but I saw the "As long as it Dosent have RL connections" thing being used to justify him being here when I asked of the Metaphorical stuff was mitigating, I disagreed but felt I shouldn't go against what I asummed to be the Consensus.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#12992: Sep 18th 2019 at 6:45:11 PM

Well since I now have more than 5 [tup] and so far 0 [tdown] I should do Tamir's write-up before I forget.

  • The Dictator: Tamir Aladeen is the Treacherous Adviser and uncle to Admiral General Haffaz Aladeen who plots to overthrow the titular dictator. Upon arriving in New York City Tamir arranges Aladeen to be kidnapped and killed while he replaces him with a mentally challenged body double, Efawadh. Tamir would then manipulate Efawadh signed a document that would turn the dictator-ruled country Wadiya into a democracy allowing Tamir to sell the countries oil fields to the highest bitter. A plan that fails only due to Aladeen's last minute intervention, Tamir uses this opportunity to make an attempt on Aladeen's life.

Just to let you all know those you haven't vote for Tamir can still do if they still want to. Here's the link to Tamir's EP.

Edited by G-Editor on Sep 18th 2019 at 3:46:34 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#12993: Sep 18th 2019 at 6:49:06 PM

No to Doris and Adachi. The nature of The Dictator makes me question it having a keeper but until a solid counterargument comes up, I’m fine with Tamar keeping.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#12995: Sep 18th 2019 at 7:48:52 PM

I saw the film's awhile ago, the tone is more or less what you'd think...but I don't recall Tamir himself having any outlandish or Butt-Monkey moments unless I'm forgetting something.

[tup] to Tamir

Things are really about to get Fun around here
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#12996: Sep 18th 2019 at 7:56:05 PM

Axed this ones's goose: Despite his questionable planning skills, Rothbart tries to be this and nearly succeeds thanks to his efficiency, Jack Palance's voice, and his tendency to look good while doing evil.

IPP Wick Check created.
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#12997: Sep 18th 2019 at 10:47:54 PM

Hey you know I was wondering if Hazama from a BlazBlue could qualify as a MB (I’m not talking about Yuuki Terumi, only Hazama). I know that Hazama initially started off as a vessel for Yuuki, but he eventually developed his own personality and agenda separate from Yuuki and Hazama does most of the scheming for Yuki in the present, and eventually breaks off from Yuuki becoming his own person and deciding he no longer wants be a not vessel for Terumi. It also helps that Hazama is much more composed and cool-headed than Terumi. I mean we do have Xemnas the Nobody of Xehanort so I don't see the issue for Hazama not qualifying (unless I'm missing something)

Edited by G-Editor on Sep 18th 2019 at 8:29:07 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#12998: Sep 18th 2019 at 11:37:37 PM

I mean... I don't see why not.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#12999: Sep 19th 2019 at 1:39:13 AM

No, most of Hazama's bastard moments were caused by his Terumi possession. Terumi himself is way too smug, arrogant, and a sadist to count. Hazama alone isn't enough of a bastard methinks. As for other potential candidates, Kokonoe is too engrossed in science to care what she does.

I'd happily hear out an EP for Hazama though. Yes to Tamir and no to Adachi.

Edited by Klavice on Sep 19th 2019 at 1:47:48 AM

Fan727 Since: Sep, 2019
#13000: Sep 19th 2019 at 2:35:05 AM

Giving another Demon Legacy character a chance.

Who is he?

Abel, the immortal guy who played Narik and made Slade (the hero) the character he is now. At start he plays around, then he reveals his nature, then he is seemingly killed, but the true one is at Slade's mind, trying to kill Slade or Kahn (the Demi-God who made friends with humans), but is ultimately thwarted by Shadar. Revealed to be still alive somehow during the fight with the Demi-Gods, Abel killed Apollo, another master manipulator and fights Slade's group once again. Despite his defeat, he still tries to wipe out the world that made him suffer, but is ultimately killed by Shadar.

Intelligent?

Played Slade's master and raised Slade. Showed his true colors to be killed, only so the real one could sneak into Slade's mental world.

Bastard?

Killed his parents, attempted to kill Slade (the person he raised) and tried to wipe out the world.

Too much?

He wasn't treated well due to being born with a disability. After Apollo's power compensates his disability, he instantly pays back to anyone who treated him terribly. Abel also suffered a lot and Slade feels sorry for him at one point. Also, when playing Narik, he treated Slade well and even warned him from Shadar after Slade's first meeting with Shadar.

Feet?

He outsmarts Apollo, who is a capable manipulator himself. He also comes close to his goal.

Charming?

Got Slade to his side while playing Narik. His reveal co-incidentally caused Slade to lose his good social status due to him co-incidentally being accused to murder.

Verdict?

With Apollo and Faust too confident and Deimos too much of a terrible boss, Abel is the only DL character who might make it.


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